Have you considered why people go to hell?

Brother PreachtheWord, you have answered your own question with the above - and as I see it, the answer is no different than the answers given earlier by Helen, Pastor Bob 63, Pastor Larry, C.S. Murphy and all others. So, as I see it, you are all in agreement.

The summary of the thread therefore is as follows: Sin (all sin) will keep unregenerate men out of heaven, but repentance of sin will result in forgiveness by God the Father and through the blood of Jesus an entrance is granted into heaven - Period! I trust that we are all in agreement with that?!

[ December 31, 2002, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Barnabas ]

 

Your assumption is incorrect. Please read their posts again. If I could get the impression and interpretation of what I eluded to, so can you.

 

PreachtheWord, now you are talking about apples and oranges.... By all indications then, you were coming here with a preconceived idea, didn't you? Therefore your question was loaded, and not sincere.

I would strongly recommend that you separate the isssue from the personalities. If you have a quarrel against any of the posters, resolve your differences via PMs and do not make it a public display. Thank you for your kind cooperation. Your brother and friend in Christ, Barnabas (BB Administrator)

[ December 31, 2002, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Barnabas ]

 

PTW, I, of course, cannot speak for Helen, but I really do not think we are that much different in our theology in this area. We are simply explaining it from a different perspective.

In a nut shell, I believe that all men are sinners. Nothing can change that fact. We will never become sinless until we receive our glorified bodies. We have the opportunity to have our sins atoned for by accepting the finished work of Christ on Calvary.

Those who refuse to accept this free pardon for sin will face the judgement of God; not for their sins, although it was their sins that brought them to this place, but for refusing the one thing that could prevent this judgement, the grace of God.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (KJV)

 

I don't know ... at the risk of being Scrooge on New Year's Eve, having read what Helen has said in other places and Pastor Bob in this one, I do not believe we are saying the same thing in any respect. Helen has made it clear that people do not go to hell for sin because all sin was paid for. They only go to hell for unbelief. I cannot find a way to reconcile that in my mind with my position. Nor can I find a way to reconcile it with what I believe Scripture teaches in numerous passages regarding the wages of sin.

I maintain that if you believe that all sin without exception was actually paid for at the cross, then the sin of unbelief must be included. The end result is universalism. If you believe that all sin except the sin of unbelief was paid for, then you must demonstrate that from Scripture as well as present a reasonable theological reason why unbelief was omitted from the atonement and why it is not "merit" on the part of the believer who receives salvation from something other than the atonement of Christ. You must also explain how a just God exacts a penalty for sin when the penalty has already been offered. I think the danger of universalism is inherent in the discussion and no theological/biblical proof has been offered to the contrary yet.

No, I think there are too many differences here to call it "different perspectives." I am not comfortable, at the point at least, with saying "their belief is the same as mine, they just call it a different name."

But I do think this is a topic worthy of pursuit provided it remains calm and measured.

 

Then let me turn the question around and ask: "What is unbelief?" Answer, the only unforgivable sin, the sin against the Holy Spirit, the rejection of Jesus Christ! All sins can be forgiven, but that one alone cannot. This is what Helen and everybody else is talking about. So, what else is new under the sun?

 

1) I think you'll find that not everyne thinks you're right that it is unbelief as such tha is the unforgivable sin, the balsphemy against the Holy Spirit. The text seems to say that it is the ascribing the work fo the Spirit to Satan.

2) I don't think this is what Helen and Bob are talking about. I don't read them saying that unbelief, as the unforgivable sin, is the one thing that makes you irretreivably lost (they hardly can since all are unbelievers prior to becming believers). Rather I see them as saying that one must actually reject Christ in order to merit Hell. That and that only.

 

But this, my dear friend Barnabas, I would take issue with on the basis of the text. Unbelief is not the only unforgivable sin because it can be forgiven. The unforgivable sin is the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which was the attributing of the casting out of demons by Christ to the power of Satan. The sin against the Holy Spirit goes much farther than simple unbelief, as the context of that passage indicates.

If unbelief cannot be forgiven, then there are none of us who can be saved for we were all at one time unbelievers.

Unbelief is the failure to commit the whole self to the person and work of Jesus Christ. Put another way it is failure to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. It can be forgiven as is evidenced by the number of people who have been forgiven for it. In Revelation 21:8, unbelief is listed alongside of seven other sins, which are the reasons why people are cast into hell. Unbelief is not the sole reason, according to this passage. You must include cowards, abominable, murderers, immoral people, sorcerers, and idolators, as well as unbelievers.

I think this is a place where these relevant texts deserve more careful attention.

 

Murph*** I personally feel this thinking is in error, some seem to be reading something that others don't. Your point about unbelief not being irretrievable because all are unbelievers prior to salvation is strange, a person who fails to belief is ofcourse lost and they will remain in that state until and unless they bow their knee to Christ. I read no one on this thread preaching universalism, nor teaching that you must reject Christ to earn hell. John 3:18 has already been quoted and proves that failing to believe = condemnation. Furthermore I feel this entire discussion is over the way we describe the process of seperation from God, while some may argue that sin is what sends us to hell, others say that it is unbelief that sends us to hell. I suppose both are correct and I don't understand the squabble. Concerning the wages of sin we must understand that those wages are paid, there is a debt because of sin and someone must pay the debt. The choice is yours whether you will pay it yourself or allow Christ to die in your place. He died to pay the penalty for all people and all sin but only those who receive Him will receive the payment. Those who fail to recieve Christ will die in their sins and they will pay for their sin with their eternal life and at that point they will pay for all sins from disobeying their mother to unbelief in Christ but the sin that got them to that point will be ultimately the sin of unbelief for otherwise they would not owe the debt Jesus would have already paid it. Remember also Romans 4:3 even Abraham was counted righteous because of belief. And also Gal 2:16 Paul said even we have believed in Jesus Christ that thru the faith of Christ we might be justified. I sincerely hope that anyone else who feels it necessary to call anyone here a universalist or say they are teaching a works doctrine or twisting scripture has much more evidence than has been posted to validate their claims.
Murph

 

Unbelief can indeed be forgiven, as can any other sin. Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (KJV)

"All manner of sin--shall be forgiven." That is, only on condition that men repent and believe. If they continue in this sin, they cannot be forgiven:
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (KJV)

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (KJV)

God promised that He will forgive and cleanse us from "all unrighteousness" but only on the condition that we "confess our sins." (I John 1:9) The sad fact is, not all men are seeking forgiveness and cleansing. It is failure to do so that will result in eternal damnation. It is not the sin. Christ's blood was more than sufficient to pay for any and all sin. The free pardon is there for the taking.

 

Is there a difference between unbelieving (or nonbelieving) and disbelieving?

Analogy: Living in a part of the world where I don't use the Euro makes me a nonbeliever of the Euro. Living in part of the world where the Euro is used, but still refusing to use it would make me a disbeliever.

Just a little food for thought. I thought I'd throw it out there.

 

I am unequivocally stating here and now that unbelief is sin! I have not implied nor alluded to the belief that it was anything but sin. It is, however, the only sin that left unconfessed and unforgiven will result in eternal damnation.

I can die with unconfessed adultry in my heart and still go to heaven. I can die with unforgiven lies in my life and still go to heaven. I can die with pride, envy, lust, bitterness, etc., etc... all unconfessed and unforgiven and still go to heaven.

But, if I die having never turned from the sin of unbelief, I am lost and will spend all eternity in hell.

I'm sorry we do not agree on this issue, but please do not attribute to me that which I do not believe.