Have you considered why people go to hell?

Right, because they are sinners...but the sin debt...was paid by Jesus Christ...and it's his gift of salvation that can pay that debt of which we owe...of eternal damnation...so we don't have to...right?

So...by one man sin entered into the world, and death. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God...we are seperated from God. But...because God in his infinite mercy did not want any of us to be seperated from him...he made a way for us to escape that sin debt...by sending his only begotten son to pay it for us. So...although we all deserve death...because of that sin that entered in by one man..Adam...if we accept that gift...our debt is paid.

 

OK, then let me put it in another way. A former BB Moderator said the followig in reference to what is going on here, and I have to agree with him. What do you think?

 

Wow...he said that? That was a pretty astute observation. And particularly illuminating of my own dealings with Dr. Cassidy.

My father used to say "Extraordinary people talk about ideas, Common people talk about people" Not exactly the same thing... granted...but it did encourage me to try to be less common.

Sorry...just pondering...my comments are not implied to be directed at anyone but my response to what Barnabas said as it effects my own beliefs and experiences.

 

WisdomSeeker, did you want to quote the following?

 

Yes, that's the one... I was trying to remember, but it's been awhile since my childhood.

It's a good quote isn't it? And all this time I thought it originated with my Dad...oh well.

 

WisdomSeeker, you wrote:

Here's the difference (as I see it) between what you are saying and what I think Helen is saying. (I am not sure about Pastor Bob):

You say that our debt is paid IF we believe, so you have the APPLICATION of the atonement only for those who believe. Those who don't believe (according to what you are saying) never have their sin debt paid, so they will be in hell because their sin debt has never been paid, and their sin remains upon them, and they will be justly punished for it in hell.

Helen (as I read it, and she is free to correct me) is saying that every single person who has ever lived has actually had their sin debt paid--the atonement is actually applied to everyone. The slate with their record of sin is wiped clean at the cross, and the only thing that will remain on the slate when they die are the words, "Rejected Christ," and it is that and only that they will be punished for in eternal hell.

Here's why I think the difference is important:

I believe we are all born condemned because of our sinfulness. This other theory seems to have us all (or at least everyone since the cross) born with wiped clean slates.

I believe that those who never hear the gospel are condemned even though they never have the opportunity to actually reject Christ's atonement, because they have a slate with a list full of sins. It doesn't matter (in the sense of God's justice) whether they ever hear the gospel or not, for either way, God is perfectly just in condemning them, either for their sins, or for their sins plus the one sin of rejecting Christ.

Under this other theory, some way in which everyone who ever lives actually learns of the atonement and has the opportunity to reject it must be invented, or else God is not really just in his condemnation, since everyone is only condemned because they reject Christ.

I suppose this is all clear as mud. Anyway, I think the difference is important, and not just semantics. Many of these things that seem like subtle small differences often have much larger ramifications.....

[ January 03, 2003, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

russell 55,

Very well put and perfectly understandable by me. I think this is what PTW was saying...it is an important difference.

 

Have you ever considered that that was why God said for us to go into all the world and share the gospel? and put this little worm in the works...something that I have pondered...but am not stating as an absolute...but pondered...perhaps that is why Jesus has not come back yet...maybe because of the ignorant...the ones who have never heard of Christ, time...time to tell them.

I like Helen's theory... I do believe that eternal seperation would include rejection... I just don't know if that is the only reason. Yes, we have all had our sins paid for...but if we don't accept the gift of that payment because of ignorance of it... does it still belong to us?...do we still get to go to Heaven?

Yes, we've all been forgiven since Christ died on the cross...past sins, present and future sins were forgiven there. But if we don't accept that gift of salvation and believe in it and Him... will we still go? That may be where this subject is going... accept, reject...or are still waiting to hear.

That's why I take it litterally when the Bible says to go into all the world...and I will go. When it says He who winneth souls is wise...well, I go soul winning. All Christians are supposed to do this...why would we be commisioned to tell others...unless it was important for them to know?

I believe that the end of the world will not come until everyone has had the opportunity to know and make a choice...for or against. But that's just my opinion... God may very well give up waiting for us Christians to go out there and do what we have been commanded to... I just don't know...but those are my thoughts on the matter.

[ January 03, 2003, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: WisdomSeeker ]

 

Barnabas,

Dr. Cassidy has a good line there. A lot of truth to it. It highlights though that we must keep a good understanding between semantics, ideas, and people. Ironically people who espouse principles like that, sometimes use them as oblique attacks of people.

I don't think there has been a focus on people or semantics here.

I am, however, beginning to feel that I am being encouraged to not discuss the ideas.

 

That is disheartening to read. I would hope that you would continue to discuss your ideas...as I would hope to read them.

[ January 03, 2003, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: WisdomSeeker ]

 

That is disheartening to read. I would hope that you would continue to discuss your ideas...as I would hope to read them.</font>[/QUOTE]Not to worry. I am far too stubborn.

And its not a personal thing. I don't feel that I, particularly, am being encouraged to not discuss my ideas. Nor am I feeling that I am being considered a small person who discusses merely semantics and persons. Wer either of these the case I am confident that I would have received a PM before this.

I'm just getting the impression that the preference is that this particular discussion not go forward.

Thanks for the kind words. I love your hair by the way.

 

Well, thank you for the compliment...that was very sweet.

 

According to John 3:18 our condemnation doesn't need to be proven it is a Biblical fact that we are condemned until and unless we believe. The way I see it we are born into sin and we will die in our sins and spend an eternity apart from God unless while we are walking in this mortal frame we are drawn by the Spirit and receive Christ by believing in Him. If my opinion above states Biblical truth then how can we not agree that the fact of ones belief or unbelief is indeed the determining factor in their eternal future.

Murph

 

Exactly </font>[/QUOTE]I would like to see a quote where someone has said otherwise on this thread, if it has been given I have missed it.
Murph</font>[/QUOTE]Ten hours later and I have yet to see a quote given. Any takers?

Murph

 

Murph,

Kal-El made an allusion to something. And quotes have been given which say that people must deny Christ in order to be condemned, and that in a way that suggetss that this is the ONLY way to be condemned. I think you missed it.

 

Someone earlier on this thread told me to deal with things that are stated not what is implied. Instead of speaking of allusions or he said she said just post a quote from this thread that makes the statements claimed. I may have missed something as I also have stated so please post the quote or quotes.
Murph

 

Someone earlier on this thread told me to deal with things that are stated not what is implied. Instead of speaking of allusions or he said she said just post a quote from this thread that makes the statements claimed. I may have missed something as I also have stated so please post the quote or quotes.
Murph</font>[/QUOTE]Murph,

If I were less tired I might put a smiley. But being tire, I won' bcuase in my fatigue you coe across more pointed.

From pastpr Bob:

"Sin does not send people to hell; we are all sinners. Not one of us will die without sin. Why can I go to heaven and another go to hell? Because I have accepted the atonement for my sins. Romans 5:11"

This is representative, not exhaustive.

The gist that is being perceived is that one has to reject Christ in order to be condemned.

Although I will say this. Tired as I am, it can also be taken not as a denial that people are sufficiently dead in their sins to not need to reject Christ.

 

Take a look at my name and you will now why people go to hell.

John3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

So, here are two quotes from page 2 of this thread:

These make it sound as if everyone's record of sin was wiped clean at the cross, and their punishment for sinful acts was done away with at that point as well, rather than at the point of faith.

If that is not what is meant, then it would be nice if that were explained. And it may not be what was meant, perhaps what was being said just wasn't thought through. (Even if this is the case, this still isn't a non-issue, because this is a theory of the atonement that has become more and more common in the past several years--I have encountered it a few times recently.)

As it stands, these ideas certainly seems to conflict with Jesus being a propitiation through faith., or that repentance is necessary in order to have our sins blotted out. Up until the point of faith we are carrying around a heavy record of our sins, and "storing up wrath" for ourselves because of our continued sin. At the point of faith that record is wiped clean, and it is then that we experience the propitiation made on our behalf, that we receive the redemption purchased by Christ on our behalf, that the pardon bought for us becomes an official pardon.