Have you really repented

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by freeatlast, Aug 10, 2011.

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Would you obey God when He calls for the death penalty

Poll closed Sep 9, 2011.
  1. Yes I would obey every one of those commands

    5 vote(s)
    100.0%
  2. I would obey only some as I disagreee with some of them

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. I am not sure what I would do

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. No I don't believe in the death penalty so I would not obey

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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    We talk about repentance and believing God. If you lived under the law, and the following in the OT brought the death penalty, would you defy God and refuse to carry out any of these laws?
    • Adultery (Lev 20:10-12, (man and woman).
    • Making love to a virgin pledged to be married to another. Applies to man who deflowers virgin pledged to be married, and to the virgin if she does not call for help. (Deut 22:23-24).
    • The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (death by fire) (Lev 21:9).
    • Rape of someone who is engaged. If she is not engaged you only have to marry her and give her father 50 shekels. No mention is made of the girl’s opinion. (Deut 22:25).
    • Men practicing bestiality. (Both man and animal die). (Lev 20:15)[4]
    • Women practicing bestiality (Both woman and animal die). (Lev 20:16) [4]
    • Having sex with your father’s wife, as distinct from "your mother", as it was common practice for men at the time to have several wives. (both die). (Lev 20:20).
    • Marrying a woman and her daughter. They are all burnt to death (Lev 20:14)
    A couple of these demand that the "sinners" be burnt to death rather than stoned — which was the more usual form of capital punishment. One can wonder why these crimes in particular merit this especially horrible fate.
    Religious Laws

    • Worshiping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).
    • Blasphemy (Lev 24:14-16,23).
    • Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).
    • Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
    • Being a medium or spiritualist. (stoning) (Lev 20:27).
    • Trying to convert people to another religion. (stoning) (Deut 13:1-11, 18:20).
    • Apostasy - If most people in a town come to believe in a different god. (Kill everybody, including animals, and burn the town.) (Deut 13:12-15)
    • Giving one of your descents to Molech. Probably refers to human sacrifice and is not now commonly practiced in the west. (Lev 20:2)
    • Non-priests going near the tabernacle when it is being moved. (Numb 1:51)
    • Being a false prophet. (Deut 132:5, Deut 18:20, Zech 13:2-3) Parents and Children.
    • Striking your parents (Ex 21:15).
    • Cursing your parents (Ex 21:17, Lev 20:9).
    • Being a stubborn and rebellious son. And being a profligate and a drunkard. (stoning) (Quite a few of us might have a problem with this one)(Deut 21:18-21)
    Violent and legal crimes

    • Murder. However if a slave is beaten to death the owner is “punished” — not necessarily killed. If the slave survives the beating then there is no punishment. (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:12, Numb 35:16-21). This is part of a wide range of slavery laws in the Old and New Testament.
    • Kidnapping and selling a man. This is really a law against making an Israelite a slave against his will. (Ex 21:16).
    • Perjury (in certain cases) (Deut 19:15 - 21). Deut 19:20 explicitly identifies that the purpose of this is deterrence. "The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing (malicious and false testimony by one man against another) be done among you." Presumably all the other death penalties are assumed to be for deterrence as well.
    • Ignoring the verdict of a judge – (or a priest!) (Deut 17:8-13).
    • Not penning up a known dangerous bull, if the bull subsequently kills a man or a woman. (Ex 21:29) Both the animal and the reckless owner of the dangerous bull are to be put to death. Things that don’t go anywhere else.
    • Living in a city that failed to surrender to the Israelites. (Kill all the men, make the women and children slaves.) Deut 20:12-14
     
  2. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    OK to do under the old Covenat and law, as God Himself gave the penalty to enact for these acts being done...

    Thank God we are now under new Covenant, where jesus forgave the sinners by grace, and who now grants us the person of HS to live for God in his power!
     
  3. freeatlast

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    That is non responsive to the OP.
     
  4. JesusFan

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    think that it was answered under the part
    "required by God to be done in OT/not under the New Covenant"

    Would obey God and do as He said in OT times....
     
  5. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
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    I always love these kind of questions. If you lived then, would you...? Of course, you carry it to the extreme of saying if someone didn't they would be defying God.

    There was a process and protection about the carrying out of these laws. With murder, there were the cities of refuge. According to Deuteronomy 17 and 19, there had to be 2 witnesses (one would not do), so there was some trial process.

    Putting someone to death even if it is justified by a court of law or even in self defense or as a soldier is not so simple as "God said it, I'll do it. It's simple obedience". There is a price that is paid by the person who carries it out.
     
  6. freeatlast

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    First yes I would. Second there was no cities of refuge for murder. That was for manslaughter. By the way what is your answer? would you obey those commands?
     
  7. Tom Bryant

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    I think it's a stupid question. I am not there. I didn't live under the law. I live under the second part of your avatar: "The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
     
  8. freeatlast

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    Or perhaps you dare not answer it as it exposes your heart.
     
  9. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
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    That's probably true. It reveals that my heart is firmly rooted in the New Testament.
     
  10. righteousdude2

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    Thus Says the Lord....

    ...."Ichabod!" You are back on the path to legalism; beating a dead horse in a race that was over three days ago!

    You just don't give up, and for that, I give you points for your doggedness!

    This OP should make for some good late night reading.

    But, what ever the stand you are trying to make is, I still say "Ichabod!" :wavey:
     
  11. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
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    This OP reminds me of a witch hunt in a sense. Set up to tell people about whether ones heart is right? Seriously?

    Tom Bryant, I respect your answers herein.

    Let's keep in mind those in the OT that said they would keep all of these commandments, guess what, didn't keep them as they were told, and as they said they would.

    They gave lip service, and thus saying "they would" proved not one thing about their heart until the actual chance came to do it, then those pious ones who laid claim to obedience were found lacking.

    - Peace
     
  12. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    yes, required to obey the Lord at all times if he directly commands something to be done...

    Thankfully, He does not require us to do ANY of that today, save for the case of 1st degree murder, in which he still allows for captial ounishment...
     
  13. freeatlast

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    Let tme ask you a question. Why is it thankfully God does not require any of those punishments for certain crimes. Were all of then excessive or just some?
     
  14. JesusFan

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    there were required by God under the Theocracy governing over His nation of isreal, ONLY nation in history that God 'direct ruled" over, and were part of His mosaic covenant by the Law with them...

    just saying thast was an exceptional case, and am REALLY thankful that we are in the new Covenant of Grace, and that Jesus atoned for ALL of my 'capital" Sins, so that I would not ahave too!
     
  15. freeatlast

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    This is not an issue of Atonement. This is an issue of law To govern a people. So if the moral commands were good enough for God to give to His chosen people and the consequences for breaking those moral commands then should they not alway be our laws as well today?
     
  16. JesusFan

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    No, as that was the arrangement under the Old Covenant, under a "unique" status between isreal and God, but noe are in new Covenant, and law is replaced by Age of Grace!
     
  17. freeatlast

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    Then should we not be doing grace and not putting people in prison?
     
  18. JesusFan

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    that falls under Justice...

    just referring to grace as basis of our rrelationship to God today in New Covenant...

    Do you hold that being governed directly by the law of God was JUST to Isreal Under old Covenant, or should be for today also?
     
  19. freeatlast

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    This is not about grace or salvation.This is about how to deal with moral sins. Did God give the proper standards for breaking the moral law?
     
    #19 freeatlast, Aug 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2011
  20. sag38

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    "But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."
    II Timothy 2:16
     

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