Have you studied the other side?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Pastor_Bob, Sep 15, 2004.

  1. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob
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    The following statement by AVL1984 is the basis for this thread:
    I have found it very common for many to study only the side of the issue on which they stand. I am curious if either "side" has taken a serious look at the arguments and information presented by the "other side?"

    KJVOs, please list any books that you have open-mindedly studied that present a case for modern versions use.

    Non-KJVOs, please list any books that you have open-mindedly studied that present a case for KJVOnlyism however you may define it.
     
  2. Pastor_Bob

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    I consider myself a #2 KJVO with strong #3 beliefs as well. (Click HERE for definitions of KJVO categories)

    I have read and studied the following books which present arguments against my position:

    1. The Bible in Translation - Ancient and English Versions by Bruce M. Metzger
    2. God's Word In Our Hands - The Bible Preserved For Us by James B. Williams and Randolph Shaylor
    3. The Inspiration of Scripture - Problems and Proposals by Paul Achtemeier
    4. The Unbound Scriptures - A Review of KJV-only Claims and Publications by Rick Norris
     
  3. natters

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    Pastor_Bob said "Non-KJVOs, please list any books that you have open-mindedly studied that present a case for KJVOnlyism however you may define it."

    I have read (and own most of) the following pro-KJV-only and/or anti-MV books:

    1. New Age Bible Versions by Gail Riplinger
    2. Which Bible? edited by David Otis Fuller
    3. The Heresies of Westcott and Hort by D.A. Waite
    4. sections of The Revision Revised by Dean John Burgon
    5. Differences in the King James Version Editions by Peter S. Ruckman
    6. A Survey of the Authorized Version by Peter S. Ruckman
    7. About the New King James Version by Peter S. Ruckman
    8. Satan's Materpiece! The New ASV by Peter S. Ruckman
    9. The NIV - An "In-Depth" Documentation of Apostasy by Peter S. Ruckman
    10. The Monarch of the Books! by Peter S. Ruckman
    11. Defending the King James Bible by D.A. Waite
    12. An Understandable History Of The Bible by Samuel Gipp
     
  4. LarryN

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    Yes, I've studied King James Onlyism for myself: I've read Riplinger's New Age Bible Versions cover-to-cover (all 800 or so pages); I've read a fair amount of Ruckman; a fair amount of Gipp; and a variety of others, including Hyles' False Bibles: An enemy of Soul-Winning and his sermon Logic Must Prove the King James Bible.

    [Edited to remove conclusions - I would prefer this thread be limited to stating the various books/resources one has studied. A separate thread many be started to discuss the opinions regarding these books.

    Larry, I saved your comments if you would like them back to initiate a separate thread.]

    [ September 15, 2004, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Pastor_Bob ]
     
  5. robycop3

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    Not only have I read all the publications listed above, but I've also read "Our Authorized Bible Vindicated" by Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson(7th Day Adventist official), "God Wrote Only One Bible" by J.J.Ray, all of"Revision revised" by John Burgon, and many other books, articles, pamphlets, & tracts by the likes of KJVOs Marrs, Moorman, Watkins, Hyles, Waite, Faust, Reagan, Hills, Chambers, Chick, Beebe, and many others. This led me to read things be Metzger, White, Kutilek, Hudson, Wallace, Norris, Hushbeck, Tegart, Joyner,and others on the opposite side.

    I then took the time to track down as many of their various claims, counterclaims, points, and statements as possible, as I found time. This was in the days before the Internet, and luckily I worked with several understanding library employees who showed me some little-used reference books and the works of Burgon, Hoskier, Metzger, and some others. THIS TOOK SEVERAL YEARS!

    [Edited to remove conclusions. Please see note above]

    [ September 15, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Pastor_Bob ]
     
  6. Pastor KevinR

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    As a former KJVO, the books I own and have read are: Manuscript Evidence, by Ruckman
    Which Bible? by Fuller
    Let's Weigh the Evidence (no longer have)by Burton
    Can You Trust Your Bible? and Why I Believe the Old King James Bible, both by Lackey
    God Wrote Only One Bible by Ray
    Things That Are Different Are Not The Same by Carter
    The KJV Defended by Hills

    The books that helped me to no longer believe the KJVO side:
    The KJ Only Controversy by White
    The Facts on The KJO Debate by Ankerberg and Weldon
    J.Frank Norris and His heirs by Kutilek
    King James Only? by Joyner (simple, yet excellent)
    The KJV Debate by Carson (although many of his conclusions I disagree)
    The Unbound Scriptures by Norris

    [Edited to remove conclusions. Please see note above]

    [ September 15, 2004, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Pastor_Bob ]
     
  7. Trotter

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    My list is nowhere near as long as many others.

    I have read a couple of books by Ripplinger, two by Ruckman, sections of Gipp's, a whole lot of SDA literature, and various other paperbacks that fell into my hands.

    As my local library does not carry any of these, I had to borrow them from others, as I only buy what I intend to keep and use. Poor men cannot afford to spend money on a book that you do not plan to re-read.

    No conclusions to state. I have read "the other side". But I have not read my own side, as I know where I stand.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  8. Pastor_Bob

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    The following list is in response to a Private Message requesting a list of books that I have in my library that support the KJV position that I hold.

    Final Authority by William P. Grady

    Defending the King James Bible by D.A. Waite

    Which Bible? and True or False? by David Otis Fuller

    A Testimony Founded Forever – The King James Bible Defended in Faith and History, Lively Oracles – The Inspired Bible in the Hearts of Believers, Silver Words and Pure – Tried in a Furnace of Earth , Westcott’s New Bibles - Changing the Truth of God Into a Lie: A Trojan Horse in our Churches by James H. Sightler

    God Wrote Only One Bible by Jasper James Ray

    New Age Bible Versions by G.A. Riplinger

    Things That Are Different Are Not The Same by Mickey P. Carter

    Touch Not The Unclean Thing – The Text Issue and Separation by David H. Sorenson

    Seventy-five Problems – with Central Baptist Seminary’s Book: The Bible Version Debate by
    Lloyd L. Streeter

    The Battle for the Bible by Harold Lindsell

    “It is written” – Greek perfect tense of γεγραπται supports preservation of Scripture by Christopher B. Raper


    I do not fully support and endorse all of these books in their entirety. There are some that represent the extreme KJVO position which I have attempted to distance myself from.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    I got on a bulletin board that was
    a precussor of the Inernet Bulletin Boards
    in 1984 (yes, over 20 years ago).
    I was not interested in the KJVO movement
    at that time and used the NIV.

    All my objective study of the KJVO movement
    was made on the internet (or it's precussor).
    (BTW In 1984-1988 I was just a twist away
    from the Sciencelogy.

    I have copies of NEW AGE VERSIONS
    by Gail A. Riplinger,
    IN AWE OF THY WORD by Gail A. Riplinger,
    but i've never read them objectively.

    [​IMG] Praise Iesus, Sonne of God [​IMG]
     
  10. gb93433

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    Creating and Crafting the Contemporary English Version : A New Approcah to Bible Translation Published by The American Bible Society

    The Making of the NIV by Kenneth L. Barker

    The Complete Text of The Earliest New Testament Manuscripts Edited by David Barrett & Phil Comfort

    Text of The Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts Edited by David Barrett & Phil Comfort

    The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church and its Background in Early Judaism by Roger Beckwith

    New Testament Criticism & Interpretation Editors David Alan Black & David S. Dockery

    New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? By: F.F. Bruce

    The Books and the Parchments bt F.F. Bruce

    The Canon of Scripture by F.F. Bruce

    The King James Version Debate: A Plea for Realism by D. A. Carson

    Exegetical Fallacies by D. A. Carson

    The Inclusive-Language Debate: A Plea for Realism by D. A. Carson

    Biblical Hermeneutics, A Comprehensive Introduction on Interpreting Scripture By Bruce Corley

    Introduction to Interpreting Scripture By: B. Corley S. Lemke G. Lovejoy

    The Origin of the Bible By: Philip Comfort

    Biblical Interpretation Then and Now: Contemporary Hermeneutics in the Light of The Early Church by David Dockery

    Letters in Primitive Christianity by William G. Doty, Dan O. Via (Editor)

    New Testament Exegesis: A Handbook For Students And Pastors by Gordon Fee

    Memory & Manuscript: Oral Tradition & Written Transmission with Tradition & Transmission In Early Christianity By: Birger Gerhardsson

    Biblical Exegesis: A Beginner’s Handbook By John H. Hayes, Carl Holladay

    The Bible In The Twenty-First Century Edited by Howard Clark Kee

    The Historical-Critical Method by Edgar Krentz

    The Living Bible – not just another version by William F. Kerr

    Lexicography and Translation Edited by J.P. Louw pub by BSSA

    Manuscripts of The Greek Bible: An Introduction To Palaeography by Bruce M. Metzger

    The Bible in Translation: Ancient and English Versions by Bruce Metzger

    The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance By Bruce M. Metzger

    The Making of The New Revised Standard Version of The Bible By Bruce Metzger, Robert C. Dentan, Walter Herrelson

    The Text of The New Testament: Its Transmission Corruption, and Restoration By Bruce Metzger

    Signs, Sense, Translation by Eugene Nida Style And Discourse by E.A. Nida. J.P. Louw, A.H. Synman, J. W. Cronje pub. by the Bible Society of South Africa

    Structural Exegesis for New Testament Critics by Daniel Patte

    Toward An Exegetical Theology by Walter C. Kaiser, Jr.

    What Is Redaction Criticism by Norman Perrin

    Protestant Biblical Interpretation By: Bernard Ramm

    Memory and Manuscript: OralTradition and Written Transmission in Rabbinic Judaism and Early Christianity: With Tradition and Transmission in Early Christianity by Eric J. Sharpe (Translator), Birger Gerhardsson, Jacob Neusner

    Distorting Scripture?: The Challenge of Bible Translation & Gender Accuracy by Mark L.Strauss

    Form Criticism of the Old Testsament By Gene M. Tucker

    Hermeneutics: Principles and Processes of Biblical Interpretation By: Henry Virkler

    Discourse Perspectives on Hebrew Poetry in the Scriptures Ernst R. Wendland, Editor

    Language, Society, and Bible Translation by Ernst R. Wendland pub by BSSA
     
  11. robycop3

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    Pastor Bob, I hope you have the time to track down the sources of the points found in those books to see that most of'em are wrong. The worst of these are Riplinger's works, while Grady's are the most repetitious of the old stuff.

    Here's an easy job, now that the 'Net is here...

    Please find and read Benjamin Wilkinson's Our Authorized Bible Vindicated,and while you still have that book handy, please read the other side at

    http://www.kjvonly.org/doug/kutilek_wilkinson_incred.htm

    to check it out for yourself. Please feel free to check out what Kutilek says also, to see if HE'S telling the truth.

    If you have Ray's and Fuller's books, please compare them with Wilkinson's book to see both Ray and Fuller copied Wilkinson extensively, with Fuller's even going so far as to try to conceal BW's cultic ties.

    This goes to the very beginning of the current KJVO myth, to the veracity and honesty of those whose literature got the myth started. When you read BW's book, you'll soon realize that most of the KJVO stuff written today was first written in this one book, and the later authors have simply built upon this cult official's largely-incorrect info.
     
  12. Terry_Herrington

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    I've read many articles and some books, like Ruckman's "Handbook of Manuscript Evidence."

    I even used to be a staunch MV supporter. I finally, as Luke put it in chapter 15, "came to myself" and went back to what God has blessed throughout the ages. I realized that if the MV's are correct it meant that God did not get it right the first time. So I believe that God has brought me back to that old "Blessed Book" that has saved millions of people from hell.
     
  13. GrannyGumbo

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    I've only read and studied the Holy Bible aka KJB. Never had a desire or been led to go to the other side.
     
  14. David J

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    Books and resources that I used as a KJVO:

    Evangelicals and Rome by David Cloud

    For the Love of the Bible by Cloud

    Myths about the KJV by Cloud

    The WAY OF LIFE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE BIBLE & CHRISTIANITY by David Cloud

    NABV by Riplinger(which as a KJVO I did not agree with her logic)

    Some Ruckman stuff but I could not get past his mouth.

    Many pamplets

    Many online references by various KJVOist like Gipp, Chick, Reagan, etc....

    What I used to get me away from KJVOism:

    The good old AV1611 reprint.
    The Message to the Reader and the marginal notes.


    What I used to study the KJVO movement:

    The King James Controvery by White

    Only One Bible? Beachman and Bauder

    The Facts on The KJO Debate by Ankerberg and Weldon

    The Text of the New Testament by Metzger

    Many articles by Hudson, Bob Ross, Kutilek

    A lot of time comparing the KJV with the AV1611.

    A lot of time reading the NASB, NKJV, KJ21, and researching the evidence.

    Studying Wilkinson's book and comparing it to Fuller's work.

    Why the King James Version by Clark

    Reading online forums

    [​IMG] That is all that I have time to list for now.
     
  15. Craigbythesea

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    I began studying New Testament exegesis in the late 1970's and translation theory in the early 1980's. I did not seriously encounter KJOism until the late 1980's, and by then I had read and studied hundreds of works dealing with Bible translation into several different languages, including English. Almost all of what I have read was written by internationally recognized scholars who were authorities in the particular areas they were writing on.
     
  16. AVL1984

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    Don't have time at the present, but will list all the books I've read. For now I will state that I have read

    Touch Not the Unclean Thing- Dr. David Sorenson

    All the material Dr. David Cloud has presented and much of what Dr. Thomas Strouse has presented.

    I will list more later, as all of the above is KJVO, and only a partial list.

    AVL1984
     
  17. mioque

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    Pro-KJVO books I have read.

    The Attack by Jack Chick

    Answers to your Bible versions questions by David W Daniels

    As for anti-KJVO books....

    crickets...
     
  18. mioque

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    I have read bits and pieces of a number of books on both sides of the debate and a bunch of articles as well.
    And I have read a number of books on the history of the Bible, on how to translate the Bible and on textual criticism, but none of those dealt directly with the KJVO phenomenon.
     
  19. robycop3

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    I haven't read Riplinger's latest, but, given the veracity of her earlier works, I don't think there's any great secret in it waiting to be found.
     
  20. robycop3

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    I notice that few KJVOs have read the foundation for the modern KJVO myth...Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson's Our Authorized Bible Vindicated.
     

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