"having faith" and "believing"

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Helen, Nov 14, 2002.

  1. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Are these the same thing? I've thought a lot about this and where I am ending up is 'maybe not.' At least in some ways.

    Although I know we can pull Bible quotes on both sides, I'm sort of thinking that believing is more of an intellectual affair ("I believe what you are saying is true" or "I believe that God does exist, yes..."), while faith involves action, or life style, based on what you believe to be true.

    Yes, I believe that chair is strong enough to hold me

    intellectual affirmation

    THEREFORE

    I will sit in it

    faith shown in action.

    This gives some meaning, at least to me, of 'faith without works is dead.' That would then mean that "regardless of your intellectual affirmation, if you don't act on it, you really have no faith, or no active, living faith."

    Comments?

    [ November 14, 2002, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]
     
  2. jonmagee

    jonmagee
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    2,411
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, Helen, this has long been my understanding.We beleive, but do not trust, and where is our FAITH. The following has often helped me:

    Forsaking
    All
    I
    Trust
    Him

    put together and what do we have...........F.A.I.T.H.

    yours, Jon.
     
  3. Travis1980

    Travis1980
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2002
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess this is what I was getting at in my reply PM, did you get that?

    I guess this also goes against OSAS?

    [ November 14, 2002, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Travis1980 ]
     
  4. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hi Travis,

    Yes, I got your letter and thank you so much. I have been wanting to take the time to write back thoughtfully, so please be patient.

    But no, this does not go against the permanency of salvation. It does tend to show the truth of salvation, however, in a person's life. There are many who claim to be believers and they probably are believers intellectually, but their lives are still their own; they have not given up to Christ. And no, 'giving up' is NOT a 'work' -- it is finally quitting work trying to improve or save yourself or giving the appearance of a Christian. It is finally submitting to God and thus being able to rest and let Him do the work.

    And although you may try to do your own works again after that, two things have changed. First, you have a new heart if you are His; you are born again. This also means He is indwelling you through His Holy Spirit and you WILL be raised up in Him, even if He has to cut off all your own 'good works' so His can be done (this is the idea of cutting off every branch which does not bear fruit, by the way!)

    The second thing that has changed is that, being born again, it is impossible to reverse that process -- the old you is dead and you are a new person in Christ. You cannot kill your new person and reclaim the old one. Christ said He goes after sheep that stray. It's just a lot easier on everyone concerned if we don't stray -- at least too often or too much!

    I've told the kids I have worked with through the years that it's a little like jumping out of an airplane. You can make the decision to jump, but once you have jumped, there is no way back up into the plane! Something MUCH stronger than you has taken over -- in this case gravity -- and you WILL end up on the ground!

    In the same way, Paul wrote to the Philippians in 1:6 that God is faithful to finish the good work He began in you.

    And God is even bigger than gravity!

    That plane is about out of gas, though, and it's going to crash. Best jump for life!
     
  5. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    Grammatically, they are the same thing. "Faith" is noun form, "to believe" is the verb.

    I think saying the belief is only mental assent while faith is something more is making a false distinction. Scripture uses both words in both ways.

    For instance, James uses the word "faith" for something less than real saving faith when he says, "Can that faith save him?" The word "believe" is used that way, too--see John 2:23.

    Although as a norm, I would say both are usually used in the saving sense, but let the context dictate.

    [ November 14, 2002, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
  6. Pastork

    Pastork
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2002
    Messages:
    434
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with Russell.
     
  7. wjrighter

    wjrighter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2002
    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    0
    shoot after i think about it,ain't sure i'm qualified to give opinion,anyway helen good stuff....the bible does say faith will be tried by fire....not sure about belief though.
    ............bill [​IMG]
     
  8. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with Russell, also.

    Ken
     
  9. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    I studied the etymology of believe once, if I am not mistaken, and I may be, from what my studies led to, believe is more of a yielding than anything else.

    This would take us to the Cross, where we must rest from our own works, or else be found unworthy of anything short of death.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  10. SouthernBaptistBoy

    SouthernBaptistBoy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes I agree, pisteuo is the greek for believe and it also means to have faith and entrust. So in when we have faith in Christ or believe in Him for salvation, we are putting our trust in Him [​IMG]
     
  11. rkbo

    rkbo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2002
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good question, Helen. My Mom was on her death bed and one day, after many of being semi-comatosed, she was very alert. We talked about many things spiritual. She took may hand and said "You just have to trust Jesus" I said to her " You know I believe". She said "More than believe you have to trust and it is so easy."

    I knew what she meant. Trust comes from the heart.

    By the way Helen, I read that you have adopted 5 special needs kids. God bless you for that. We have 3 foster kids we are adopting and boy are they ever special needs kids.

    Take care.
     
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    pistis = noun, "faith"
    pisteuo = verb, "I believe"

    They are flip sides of the same coins. It is the exact same root.

    Modern English just doesn't have a verbal for of faith. We don't say "I faith you". We say, "I believe you."
     
  13. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good point Dr. Bob.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  14. jonmagee

    jonmagee
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    2,411
    Likes Received:
    0
    how about faith and belief????
    yours, Jon.
     
  15. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    I looked up "belief" in my concordance and it wasn't there. So the word "belief" is not in the translation that my concordance is based upon. I suspect that if you have a translation that uses the word "belief", it is translating the same word as "faith". But you could look it up in the concordance and find out for sure.
     
  16. jonmagee

    jonmagee
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    2,411
    Likes Received:
    0
    If Belief is the noun of believe, which could be merely referring to the existence is that not different to faith which requires not merely beleiving in the existence but trusting.
    yours, Jon.
     
  17. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    What we are really talking about here is the underlying Greek text. The word that is translated "faith"--which is the noun form of the word translated "to believe"--is the very same word that is also translated "belief" in some places in some translations.

    For instance, in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 in the KJV, "belief of the truth" is the very same word translated "faith" in Hebrews 11:1. To define the two words differently is making a false distinction, because in the Greek text they are exactly the same word. They both, generally speaking, mean "trust" or "confidence" or "assurance" rather than a "mental assent" to certain facts, unless the context defines them differently, as it does in the two examples I gave in an earlier post.

    [ November 16, 2002, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
  18. jonmagee

    jonmagee
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Messages:
    2,411
    Likes Received:
    0
    yes, but is that how the word believe is applied in practice in the 21st century.
    yours, Jon.
     
  19. post-it

    post-it
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/post-it.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2002
    Messages:
    1,785
    Likes Received:
    0
    To me, faith is closer to the term "trust" than it is to “belief.” This would explain how the followers of Christ "grew in faith" at their witness of his miracles. Faith is based on belief, just a trust is based on belief. So belief comes first even to a very small degree, then faith takes over in that trusting on the belief is required. This meaning prevents us from having faith based on proof. As one can believe based on proof, but scripture leads us to know that faith isn’t based on proof. Therefore, faith can’t mean belief.

    Once you "believe" something it is an either/or proposition, whereas trust is something that can improve with events and time.

    With all that said, we do use the word belief to mean faith at times, although I think it is wrongly used. If one is not sure of something, he may say “ I believe that will happen”. When the correct meaning and syntax should be “I have faith that will happen”. If one really believes it will happen he should have said "That will happen" ... without belief being part of the sentence.

    There are other examples in scripture where the use of the word faith would be closer to "believe" in context; so we do have at least a couple of different meanings of the word even though I think the interpretations of the latter referenced uses of the word believe were incorrectly translated.

    I maintain that “trust” is the true and only meaning of the word faith.

    More exactly is that faith is "trust that Jesus is God."

    [ November 16, 2002, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]
     
  20. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    I really don't see much point in trying to define the words differently than how scripture does, and in scripture they are used interchangeably to translate the same Greek word, so in scripture they have exactly the same definition.

    I do understand that we may use the words differently in every day language.
     

Share This Page

Loading...