HCSB Right or Wrong here?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Phillip, Feb 10, 2005.

  1. Phillip

    Phillip
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    In both Acts and Corinthians where the gift of "tongues" has always been translated as "tongues" in even modern versions, I find that both the Literal Translation of the Bible and Suprisingly the Holman now translate these as "languages".

    Isn't the actual word translated into "tongues" meant to be "languages"? Is this true, false?

    What say ye?

    By the way, if this is translated into languages, the true meaning of the gift is much clearer in the context of the text.
     
  2. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    :D Oh My!!!!! I'm sure our "charismatic" brethren will go into a tailspin over THAT!!! [​IMG] :rolleyes:

    Greg Sr. ;) [​IMG]
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    A tongue [glossa] means

    (1) The physical organ in the mouth. Or something shaped like it (like a flame or the tongue of a wagon) Mark 7:33

    (2) The language/spoken word of the tongue Acts 2:11

    (3) An ethnic group unified by language/spoken word of the tongue Rev 5:9

    It is very easy to see whether speaking of the physical (and translating it tongue) or language/language group (and translating as the HCSB did.
     
  4. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    The meaning of "the Kings English" was always pretty clear to me when taken in the "context" in which it was given.....and that my dear brothers was that "tongues" meant languages(human)that were miraculously given as a gift to men who hadn't ever naturally spoken those particular languages previously....for the purpose of spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a multi-national audience.Many were saved on the day of Pentecost and thereafter by this method as the Holy Ghost used men to spread His Word BEFORE the canon of scripture was complete.While I don't believe this gift is in operation today,I do believe that theoretically it is still possible that it could be given for use today if a circumstance occurred where the PRINTED Word of God was not available in a particular language.I don't want to open a can of worms here but has anybody ever heard of or documented any such modern day circumstance?I think if so the qualifier would have to be that people got SAVED as a result of it.JMO

    Greg Sr.
     
  5. Craigbythesea

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    The HCSB is in serious error on this issue and very little imagination is required to come to an understanding as to why the HCSB has chosen to use a sub-standard translation when translating passages having to do with the gift of tongues. There is no question whatsoever that the prevailing word in the English language today to express the concept expressed in the Greek New Testament is “tongues” and not “languages.” We do not refer to the “language” issue in the church; we refer to the “tongues” issue in the church. We do not ask, “Do you believe the gift of languages is in operation in the church today?” Instead, we ask, “Do you believe the gift of tongues is in operation in the church today?”

    There are only two justifiable reasons for departing from the usage found in standard translations of the Bible:

    1. New and compelling research in the Biblical languages that demonstrates that that the translation used in standard translations of the Bible are incorrect.

    2. Changes have taken place in the receptor language (in this case English) which make the translation used in standard translations of the Bible obsolete.

    Neither of these things have occurred, and departing from the usage found in standard translations of the Bible for the purpose of favoring the theology of the translators is not only unethical, but it degrades the usability of translations in which such practices have been employed. The HCSB very much reminds me of the Watchtower Society’s NWT in which very similar practices were employed for very similar reasons, discrediting not only the Watchtower Society but their translation as well.

    We have today some very excellent translations of the Bible, i.e., the NASB, ESV, and the NKJV, as well as other very scholarly but somewhat liberal translations, i.e., the RSV, NRSV, NAB, NJB, NEB and the REB, so I see no justification for using a sub-standard translation like the HCSB.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. av1611jim

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    __________________________________________________

    Which "Literal" translation are you refering to?

    Young's Literal

    Ac 2:4
    and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, according as the Spirit was giving them to declare.
    Ac 2:5
    ¶ And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation of those under the heaven,
    Ac 2:6
    and the rumour of this having come, the multitude came together, and was confounded, because they were each one hearing them speaking in his proper dialect,
    Ac 2:7
    and they were all amazed, and did wonder, saying one unto another, `Lo, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
    Ac 2:8
    and how do we hear, each in our proper dialect, in which we were born?

    I fail to see it here. I do not have the HCSB, therefore cannot comment on it.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  7. TC

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    As Dr. Bob has pointed out, the context of the word in question means the language or dialect of the people. So, the HCSB is not wrong here. Tradition is no reason to nullify the Word of God as found in the HCSB. The comparison to the watchtower and the NWT is also unwarrented. :mad:
     
  8. Phillip

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    Jim, here is the e-sword description. I am not familiar with the translation:

    Literal Translation of the Holy Bible
    (Courtesy of Jay P. Green, Sr. and Sovereign Grace Publishers)
     
  9. Phillip

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    Why, Craig, because you believe in today's Pentecostal version of "tongues"? Don't you see that you are being just as biased to prevent it from being translated in its literal sense?

    Tell me why, "language" is wrong? Please note that it gets "tongues" correct in verse 3 also...


    Act 2:3 And tongues, like flames of fire that were divided, appeared to them and rested on each one of them.
    Act 2:4 Then they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different languages, as the Spirit gave them ability for speech.
    HCSB
     
  10. Craigbythesea

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    Phillip,

    Had you actually read my post, you would have read the answer to the question:

    There are only two justifiable reasons for departing from the usage found in standard translations of the Bible:

    1. New and compelling research in the Biblical languages that demonstrates that that the translation used in standard translations of the Bible are incorrect.

    2. Changes have taken place in the receptor language (in this case English) which make the translation used in standard translations of the Bible obsolete.

    Neither of these things have occurred, and departing from the usage found in standard translations of the Bible for the purpose of favoring the theology of the translators is not only unethical, but it degrades the usability of translations in which such practices have been employed.

    And as for this comment,

    Please explain to me how the translators of the Geneva Bible and the King James translation of the Bible believed in today’s Pentecostal version of "tongues".

    Anyone who believes that the translators of the GB, KJV, ASV, NASB, ESV, NKJV, RSV, NRSV, NAB, NJB, NEB and the REB all shared the same theological bias is a fruitcake. The translators who changed the translation to fit their theological bias are the ones who are biased, and the whole world, except for Phillip, knows that these are the translators of the HCSB.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Phillip

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    I can certainly tell you that the King James translator definitely did not believe in tongues as in the today's Pentecostal movement. I can also say with high confidence that neither did the Geneva since it is my understanding that Pentecostal babbling started in the 19th century.

    So, if we have ALWAYS translated something as "tongues" (according to your theory), then we must keep using that word even though the word "language" fits just as well? So, then we are at odds with all modern translations that change words.

    In fact, who changed the Thee's and Thou's from standard translations (Bishop's, Great, Geneva, KJV, etc. etc.) are favored by YOUR number 2 which also favors the HCSB.

    In fact, I bet you are rambling on and on and you have not even read an HCSB. The only thing you have seen is my one post and since you believe in Pentecostal use of tongues (as you have indicated before) then YOUR bias is entering the picture and not allowing you to see that number 2 on your list is a perfectly acceptable reason that "language" describes a "tongue" much better in today's English.

    Of course the whole world is biased, except Craigbythesea, who has evolved to a higher plane than the rest of us who don't agree with many of your liberal beliefs. :D
     
  12. Craigbythesea

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    This is NOT what Dr. Bob has pointed out nor do several of the contexts of the word in question mean the “language or dialect of the people.”

    No one here is arguing for any traditions. The concept originally expressed in the donor language is most accurately expressed in the receptor language using the word “tongues” because that is the word in the receptor language that comes the closest to expressing the concept originally expressed in the donor language. If you don’t believe me, type the word “languages” into your search engine and compare the results with typing in the word “tongues.”

    Apples should be compared with apples; and oranges with oranges. Deliberately distorting a translation to suit one’s theological bias is unethical, regardless of who is doing it.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. TC

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    In the question asked in the OP, tongues certainly means languages.

    And you are comparing apples and bananas. In Acts and 1 Cor. tongues = languages. So, either one is acceptable.
     
  14. Craigbythesea

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    Phillip,

    You can be very funny at times. I only wish that you were as honest in what you post as you are funny. I am NOT Pentecostal and my views of Pentecostalism are based on academic studies—something that Pentecostals are NOT especially noted for.

    As for the HCSB, my displeasure with it is that it is a distinctly sub-standard translation and their use of the word “languages” where the use of the word “tongues” would be very much more appropriate has very little to do with my appraisal of the translations as a whole.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. TC

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    Yes you are. You stated that because earlier English Bible translations used the word tongues, the HCSB is wrong to use languages even though the underlying Greek word is refering to a spoken language.

    Here, you are appealing to the masses. Sometimes the masses are wrong.
     
  16. Craigbythesea

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    At least we agree that the HCSB is a fruity translation. If reading it makes you happy and gay, go for it. :D

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Phillip

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    Phillip,
    Then why don't you give us some evidence (scholarly, of course, like you do the Pentecostals) and prove that it is a substandard translation.

    It is my understanding that it is far more literal than the NIV, but still uses simpler words.

    Your argument that placing "languages" and "tongues" into google has absolutely NO relevance. You know why? Tongues will be filled with tons of websites discussing Pentecostalism. Languages won't because they do not believe that it is simply a foreign language as the Greek shows that it is.

    This was really a ridiculous exercise and if Google is your idea of a scholarly research, I have to reject your scholarly methods.
    You can be very funny at times. I only wish that you were as honest in what you post as you are funny. I am NOT Pentecostal and my views of Pentecostalism are based on academic studies—something that Pentecostals are NOT especially noted for.

    As for the HCSB, my displeasure with it is that it is a distinctly sub-standard translation and their use of the word “languages” where the use of the word “tongues” would be very much more appropriate has very little to do with my appraisal of the translations as a whole.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  18. Craigbythesea

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    Who's the most important man this country ever knew?
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    Say, tell me do, who goes, "kerchoo!" and puts the fire out?
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    BARNEY GOOGLE
    by Rose, De Beck, & Con Conrad.
    as sung by Billy Jones & Ernest Hare, Thomas & West.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. TC

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    Yeah, that's mature. :rolleyes:

    You still have not proven that the HCSB is substandard. Your opinion does not mean a whole lot. How about some facts?
     
  20. Phillip

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    Craig, I think you are starting to evolve again, but I think you may be turning into a lower life-form.

    The higher level functions of your brain seem to be degenerating and even though we debate, I like you and I'm worried about you.

    Maybe you should stay away from the sea before you start growing gills. :D [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     

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