Healing for today's church

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gup20, Apr 8, 2009.

  1. Gup20

    Gup20
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    Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
    6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
    I find it fascinating that Jesus calls himself “the son of man”. I think what he is saying is that – as a human being, not as God, he had the power to forgive sins. This gives me hope, because it means that we have the same power if we act in Jesus name (not our power, but the Holy Spirit’s power through us).

    What is sickness and disease, but forms of death and corruption – the punishment for sin and The Curse which reigns in our bodies. The same power to save our spirit – the power of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ – is the same power necessary for healing… it’s just that it is applied to our bodies rather than our spirit.

    I recently participated in a debate here where we were talking about Original Sin. There were those who say that sin is passed down biologically through humans.
    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    But I argued that I thought they had it all wrong. I think that DEATH is passed… isn’t that what it says in Romans 5:12 – and so death passed upon all men. It doesn’t say “sin passed upon all men”.

    I argued that sin being passed would defeat Jesus’ work on the cross. In order for Jesus to rise from the dead and be resurrected, he had to be sinless, so he couldn’t have inherited sin biologically. But he had to be able to die. Therefore, because Jesus was sinless but did die, we can conclude that sin is not passed on biologically, but death is. Jesus resurrected because he had no sin, and therefore death was an unjust punishment, and so it had to be reversed. When we believe on Jesus Christ our spirits are made alive in Christ, and death is condemned to die in our bodies.
    Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    So sin and death, then, are banished to our flesh, while our spirits are made alive in Christ. This is why we still die after being saved. This is why we get new bodies in the resurrection. Jesus, on the other hand kept his own body because he didn’t sin in his spirit or his flesh. This is why he still has the scars from his crucifixion in his body – because he kept his original body because he was sinless.

    Paul makes an excellent legal argument. He says in Romans 7 that death is a fulfillment of The Law. He cites as an example, that it is not adultery for a woman to remarry after her husband dies because she is free from the law binding her to her husband when the husband dies. Paul goes on to say that we are free from The Law that would put our souls in hell for eternity when sin and death are condemned in our mortal bodies when these mortal bodies die. But our spirits live on because they are made righteous by faith in Jesus.

    This illuminates the scripture that says “by his stripes we are healed” (Isa 53:5, 1pet 2:24). Because Jesus endured pain and death unjustly (he had no sin, yet felt The Curse of sin which is death and pain) in his physical body, we can have healing because God’s justice demands it. Since the offense – pain and death – were present in Jesus – fully God and fully man – that means the justice of God is infinite in its retribution to serve justice for the injustice of Jesus experiencing pain and death in his body when he had no sin.

    Also consider that Jesus’ healing ministry was most prevalent prior to his death and resurrection. Why was this? I think a combination of Acts and Romans gives us the answer:
    Act 3:12 And when Peter saw [it], he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
    Doesn’t Peter imply that both Power and Holiness are required for healing? But why holiness? The answer is in Romans 5:
    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    What Paul says here is that – when Adam sinned, death came into the world, and death is passed to all. He says that even though The Law was not given until the time of Moses, all people between Adam and Moses experienced death – even though none of them ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil – this being the only existing Law until the time of Moses. Proof positive that by one man’s sin, death enter the world, and death passed upon all men.

    So if by one man’s sin, death can be passed upon all men for all of time (even on those who had not violated an existing Law) how much more can we trust that by one man’s holiness (Jesus’ righteousness and sinlessness) life can be passed upon men. If by Adam’s sin death is our reality, then by Jesus’ righteousness healing can be our reality.

    The concept of “original sin” is a bit of a misnomer. It could, instead, be called “original death”. Now we are all sinners, and so when we die our death is deserved. But according to scripture, we don’t die because of our own sin… we die because of Adam’s sin (which generated “The Curse”). If our pain and death were because of our own sin, then Jesus would not have been able to experience pain or death because he had no sin.

    So – prior to his death and resurrection – Jesus is able to heal people because he leads a sinless, holy life. The Son of Man is able to forgive sin in the body because he is – from the moment of his conception – experiencing The Curse – dying and feeling pain unjustly. Because of HIS righteousness (in his flesh), He can forgive in the flesh – passing to other people life in exactly the same way that Adam passed death to all mankind by his sin.

    Because his spirit lives in us, and because his spirit and he are one, we can also pass on the righteousness and life of Christ to others (otherwise known as healing). However, it takes no more faith than the faith required for salvation – because it is, in fact, the same miracle. As in salvation our spirits are made righteous, with healing, the sins in our flesh are forgiven. This is why one can perform and experience God’s healing power without being “saved” as in Matthew 7:22-23.
     
  2. Jedi Knight

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    “by his stripes we are healed” (Isa 53:5, 1pet 2:24) If you read the context this is referring to spiritual healing NOT PHYSICAL HEALING. Example John 12:40 "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." Do you think He meant PHYSICAL or SPIRITUALLY? 1pet 2:24-25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. NOW THE REST:

    25For ye were as sheep GOING ASTRAY; but ARE NOW RETURNED unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. :wavey:
     
  3. billwald

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    There has been no improvement in human morality in all of history. If this is not a result of defective DNA then what? God designed murder into us?
     
  4. Gup20

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    So, padawan, do you believe that healing is not for today? Much to learn, you still have. Yeaaaas.

    And why should we - if we are dead in our sins with no hope of life, what purpose is there in morality? Until Jesus came, there was no point or purpose to morality. Think about it, billwald - Adam sins by breaking the one rule that God made -- that he wasn't to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Then everyone after him continues to die from sin, even though none of them eat from the tree - thus breaking the only existing "law" of that time. What reason would they have for morality? They are dead whether they keep the law or not.

    But what a hope we have in Jesus. In the same way death is passed from Adam, life is passed to us from Jesus Christ.
     
  5. Jedi Knight

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    "So, padawan, do you believe that healing is not for today? Much to learn, you still have. Yeaaaas. " I do believe God can heal....most assuredly,but taking scripture out of context is not HEALTHY! :thumbs:
     
  6. Gup20

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    I agree. And truth be told, your statement convicted my heart because I had not looked at the context of Is 53:5 or 1 Peter 2:24. So I have now gone back and looked at the context.

    In the words of Master Yoda - Much to learn you still have, padawan.
    1Pe 2:18 Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
    19 For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
    20 For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God.
    21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
    22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
    23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously:
    24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
    25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
    The entirety of the context of the 1 Peter 2:24 passage shows - beyond a shadow of a doubt - that it is referring to carnal, earthy body and suffering. Verse 25 is a metaphor, and uses figurative language to describe the literal language in the preceeding verses. Properly understood within the context, by whose stripes ye were healed is literal and refers to earthly bodies and earthly suffering.

    The passage in Isaiah is a litte more difficult to discern. The whole chapter is prophetic, and uses figurative language. The first time any distinguishing comments are made (between body or spirit) is in 53:10:
    Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    I thought, perhaps, JediKnight, you had made a valid point. Perhaps this passage is referring to the spirit rather than the physical. However, to be thorough, I looked up the Hebrew word in this verse for "soul". I discovered the word used here is nephesh. The word for "life" is chayah. Nephesh refers to creature life, or physical life. The Bible uses other words to describe spirit, such as ruwach. The Bible uses Nephesh Chayah to describe both human and animal life, whereas it never uses this term for plant life (which is why Abel's offering was pleasing, but Cain's was not). Furthermore the Hebrew uses the term Ruwach Chayah for spirititual life.

    Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(chayah); and man became a living soul(nephesh).
    Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life(nephesh) thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. (referring to eating the blood of animals)

    Job 10:12 Thou hast granted me life(chayah) and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit(ruwach).
    Job 33:4 The Spirit(ruwach) of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life(chayah).
    So, again, here in Isaiah, it can be demonstrated that when 53:5 says with his stripes we are healed, this can be seen by it's context to refer to physical life (nephesh chayah), not spiritual life (ruwach chayah).
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


    The words "transgressions"and "iniquities" set the context for the word 'healed" not the word soul. These two words indicate a spiritual problem. Nothing here indicates anything physical. Christ was wounded for our sins not our physical ailments. Not only is it eisegetical to suggest this but it is a distortion of the gospel being clearly delineated in this passage. You are in fact speaking an alternative gospel.It is complete heresy.
     
  8. Gup20

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    I don't see the link indicating this is purely spiritual. Can you explain it to me and show it to me in scripture? Are you saying we cannot sin in the natural, only in the spiritual? And what connects woulds, bruises, and stripes (physical) with the spiritual?

    Our physical ailments - death, pain, suffering - is the punishment for our sins. The wages of sin is death. The Curse is death.

    1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

    The Gospel, eh? Here are the first 3 times the word "Gospel" is used in the New Testament:

    Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

    Mat 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

    Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
     
  9. thegospelgeek

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    I'm glad to hear you can heal people that easily. There are a couple of Hospitals in the area that could use your help. Would you mind stopping by and telling them all to get "up and walk" like Peter told the beggar. But first stop by walter Reed, those folks deserve it more.

    And don't tell me that the one's healed have to have faith, because Peter just told the guy to get up. He didn't know who Peter or Jesus was.
     
    #9 thegospelgeek, Apr 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2009
  10. Revmitchell

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    A rather sophomoric response. Sin is a spiritual problem. Your so called comparison between sinning in the natural verses spiritual is absurd and irrelevant. I have already cleared this up with scripture.



    Maybe you should do a word study on death in scripture. It would clear this up for you.

    Thanks for providing scripture that proves my point.



    Wow, you are confused to say the least. So it is your position that the gospel was never preached until the NT? This sheds light on your distortion of the gospel in Isaiah.
     
  11. Gup20

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    He didn't need to know who Peter was -

    Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

    The man knew who Jesus was. Peter pronounced his healing in Jesus' name, and the man believed in Jesus.
     
  12. Gup20

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    Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

    You presented scripture, then made a statement about the passage with no supporting details. If I challenge you to expain your statements without accepting them merely by my faith in you, revmitchell, then I think it prudent that you explain them.

    Maybe you should tell us what you think death is rather than speculate about what I don't know.

    Oh - I hadn't realized that you had made a point. Your outburst seemed pointless, in fact; you made purely ad hominem remarks along with one verse that had zero substantiative arguments.

    You refereced Galatians 1:6 and accused me of presenting "another gospel". In an "apples to apples" - New Testament to New Testament comparrison- The Gospel ... referenced in Galatians is surely equivalent to The Gospel in Matthew (comparring Greek to Greek).

    Two chapters later in Galatians 3, Paul says that The Gospel of Jesus Christ was preached to Abraham by God (Gen 15-17). Paul then declares that Abraham was the first person saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ.

    Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    So if one strips away your ad hominem remarks and your presuppositions, together with your assumptive 'straw-man' arguments, this leaves you with nothing remaining in your post. It is a hollow and empty argument. Prov 26:4
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    The statement and the scripture to go with it is clear.



    I do not need to speculate. You answer makes it obviously clear.


    The gospel is given throughout the Bible. When you have an agenda then it blinds your eyes to it.

    No it does not say he was the first. More eisegetical wrangling. The gospel was given since Adam.



    It is your presupposition of healing that blinds you to the gospel being preached throughout the whole of scripture.
     
  14. Gup20

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    Revmitchell, if you have nothing to cotribute, and do not wish to participate in a discussion why have you posted?
     
  15. Gup20

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    Clearly I don't see it, which is why I asked you to explain it to me from scripture. You simply assert the meaning is solely spiritual, but do not provide evidence showing it. I posted a word study of verse 10 to corroborate my position, but you seem intent on letting "because you said so" be the only reason why we should accept your interpretation.

    I don't know what you think, which is why I asked. The "normal" social order is someone asks a question and someone answers. However, my questions seem to have been met with irritated snorts.

    The idea that The gospel is given throughout the Bible has not been challenged by me, and in fact is supported by my previous statements. What is the purpose of this superfluous comment?

    Strawman argument. I didn't say that Abraham was the first to hear the Gospel, I said that Paul indicates Abraham was the first saved by faith after hearing the gospel... which was in answer to the previous strawman argument you made asserting that I didn't believe the gospel was preached before the new testament.

    I believe what I read in the Bible. Jesus healed physical ailments, so it makes sense that physical healing is part of his purpose for coming. Furthermore, he tells his disciples that they shall do greater works once they receive the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:10). I can't find the verse where he says to stop. The record in Acts shows the church went about doing just that - healing in Jesus name and being filled with the Holy Spirit.
     
  16. Jedi Knight

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    Hi again GUP20,"Properly understood within the context" Sorry, I am persuaded this is not what scripture supports. Now allow me to ask you a question on this. If you believe by his stripes you are healed and don't get sick and stay healthy....what are you gonna do about the grave? Gonna do a David Copperfield on us? Cheat death because you believe you cannot get cancer? I'm not trying to be ugly with you and I'm sure you see that :wavey: Just hope you see the big picture of this way of interpreting. John said He was manifested to take away our sins. Not the earthly consequences"we will all die physically",but something even better was given for His ransom ...........Everlasting life John 5:24
     
    #16 Jedi Knight, Apr 16, 2009
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  17. Revmitchell

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    You posted nothing but unrelated verses. He was bruised for our transgressions. Now maybe you can go look up that word. But it in no way means physical ailments.




    I tolds you the Isiaah verse was the gospel of salvation. You replied with "The Gospel, eh? Here are the first 3 times the word "Gospel" is used in the New Testament:" . That indicated that you did not believe the gospel was preached until the NT.



    I do not care what semantics you play with that either way it is incorrect. No where does scripture say Abraham was the first to be saved by faith after hearing the gospel, not that it has anything to do with healing.


    This is the first intelligent defense you have made on this subject. Any way I originally spoke to your misuse of the Isaiah passage. It is a common abuse among charismatics. I am not a cessationist, but no where under any time in history was the supernatural gifts a common occurrence.
     
  18. Gup20

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    Jedi, I do see that you are not trying to be ugly. I think our interchanges are appropriate. I see no lack of compassion in a hearty debate.

    What immediately comes to mind is Lazerus. Jesus not only healed him, but raised him from the dead. According to Copperfield logic, this would mean that Lazarus would never die. But Lazarus did die, even after Christ raised him from the dead. I can speculate as to why that was, but I don't know the answer for a certainty. Suffice to say, I would logically expect it to follow the same pattern today.

    I think I can put your concerns to rest. You seem to believe that our sin and the physical consequences of our sin are somehow disconnected. You logically arrive at this conclusion by this path:
    You are saved. Your sins are forgiven. You know other people who were saved and had their sins forgiven, yet they still die physically. How can they die physically if their sins are forgiven? Their sins and the consequences for their sins must not be connected.

    However, it seems logically inconsistent if by sin we lost our physical lives (Adam's sin), but by the forgiveness of sin we do not gain it. If the punishment for our sin is death (separation from life - God is life), then wouldn't forgiveness of sin be a reconcilliation to life or to God?

    I think the Apostle Paul gives us the answer in Romans 7 & 8
    Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    This is why salvation is by Faith in Jesus Christ, and not by following the law. Those with faith in Jesus Christ are made alive in spirit by grace. However, their bodies continue in death. Paul likens it in Romans 7 to a woman who's husband had died. Once he is dead, she is free from the law binding her to her husband. In exactly the same way, once our bodies die, we are free from the law of sin and death. The physical punishment for sin is death. Once that punishment is complete, and we die, the punishment is over. We will have fulfilled our obligation to The Law. But if we were to die in our sins, we would be eternally separated from God. However, because of our faith in Christ, our spirits are alive in Christ. So when our bodies die, we are not separated eternally from God. Romans 8:3 says that sin was condemned to die with our flesh. Think of it like sin being bannished to our flesh because our spirits are made righteous (without sin) by faith.

    This is why Jesus came to earth and preached that to look on a woman with lust was sin, not just to commit adultery with her. He was telling us that he would be juding the spirit, not the flesh.

    But here is the thing, Jedi. Jesus' healing of the flesh - that all happened before his death and resurrection. Why? Because Jesus was righteous in the flesh as well as the spirit. You believe that sin and death were passed to us all by Adam's sin, so it should be no stretch that by Jesus' righteousness in the flesh, healing can be passed.

    But what does Jesus do - he goes a step further. Instead of saying "arise and walk" he sometimes says "thy sins are forgiven thee" when healing people. Then he says "that you may know that the son of man has the power to forgive sins". He was referring to the sin of the flesh, and forgiveness of the flesh. He hadn't died or been resurrected yet. But he was passing his righteousness on to others in exactly the same was as adam had passed his sin and death on to others. He was saying that - because of his righteousness of his flesh, he was healing. Jesus defined healing as forgiveness of sin in the flesh.

    So what does Peter do in Acts? He goes around healing people and preaching the gospel. When he heals the lame man in the famous "silver and gold have I none" speech, look at what he tells the people who marvel at the healling:

    Act 3:12 And when Peter saw [it], he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

    So by implication, healing requires power and it requires holiness or righteousness. Peter defines the holiness that heals him is that of Jesus in verse 16 of Acts 3. So it was the righteousness of Christ in Peter that accomplishes the work, not Peter. Peter was not righteous in his flesh, but Jesus was with him by the Holy Spirit, and Jesus WAS righteous in his flesh.

    This hasn't changed - Jesus is still with us by the Holy Spirit, and Jesus is still righteous in his flesh.
     
  19. Gup20

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    Transgressions means sin. He means Christ. The verse says Christ was physically wounded, bruised, and had stripes for our sin.
    Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
    6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
    So we see that Jesus himself states that his forgiveness isn't solely spiritual, but that - in his flesh - he had - power on earth - to forgive sins and the directly stated meaning of this that the forgiveness of sin brought healing to the man sick of the palsy.

    So I'll ask you again, what evidence do you have that Isaiah 53:5 excludes the physical? Clearly, Jesus didn't exclude the physical when talking about sin or the forgiveness of sin, so why must you?

    Additionally if we look at Isaiah 53:10, we see it indicating more bruising of Christ, and in that verse we do see a direct referece to physical flesh by use of the word soul (nephesh).

    Actually you said "...it is a distortion of the gospel being clearly delineated in this passage. You are in fact speaking an alternative gospel.It is complete heresy." Your implication is and was that an interpretation of The Gospel having anything to do with physical forgiveness of sins was a "complete heresy" and was "another gospel".

    It was my intention to show you the first 3 mentions of the word "gospel" in the New Testament were in direct reference - and in fact had everything to do with - phsyical healing. Therefore, it demonstrated that The Gospel as I was interpreting it from Isaiah 53 was consistent with The Gospel that Jesus spoke of in the New Testament and included the phsyical as well as the spiritual.

    It isn't semantics. When you put words in my mouth, and then argue against words I didn't say as though I did say them, you are creating a strawman argument. It then falls to me to point out your folly, rather than answer you according to it.

    Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
    Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    Seems like high praise, so I appriciate your compassion.

    I don't think your guns blazing "you are a sophomoric, heretic preaching another gospel" approach was very effective. I think it would have been more productive to engage in a conversation to see where I was coming from and help me to understand where you were coming from.

    There are absolutely no absolutes. All generalizations are false. (rhetorical - I believe in absolutes)

    I would call Jesus' ministry a "time in history", and I would say that supernatural gifts were a common occurence during that time in history, and in the time immediately following (Acts).
     
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    No we do not see. You keep reading into the text what is not there. The scribes accused Him of blasphemy because He said He had forgiven sins or in other words acting as if He was God. He simply pointed out His authority and power to do both forgive sins and heal came from the same place.

    I gave you the evidence. The context of heal is set by the words iniquity and transgressions. There is no promise of physical healing in that passage.



    None of those verses you quoted show anything of the sort. The purpose of the healing was to show His power not to add it to salvation.


    What I said and what you said are only different in word order. Both have the same meaning.. It is semantics.


    A rather absurd interpretation. These verses do not suggest Abraham was the first to come to faith after hearing the gospel.



    When you distort the gospel I will call you on it. And when you make poor attempts to add meaning to a passage that is not their in order to set up a false doctrine I will call you on it.
     

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