Heard of Ian Paisley?

I absolutely without reservation or exception condemn such terrorist violence performed by any person, Catholic and non-Catholic alike. I believe that any person who encourages or willfully incites this sort of activity is equally culpable.

Now, DHK, do you say the same for Paisley?

 

Smoke_Eater,
Here is the original question:
"Have anyone here heard of Dr. Ian Paisley and if so what do you think of him? I've heard that he is a staunch defender of biblical Protestantism and does not shy from calling the Pope an anti-christ."

Here are some of your answers:
"I've heard way too much of him."
"He's a thug. David Duke with a funny accent."
"In all fairness, I do want to apologize to David Duke. After all, he's had the guts to repent of his past racist and violent behavior. Paisley hasn't."
"there are: Catholics who simply want to be safe from the loyalist gangs that fascists like Paisley support."
"I don't know what goes on in the dark musty recesses of his blackened heart, so he may very well be (born again). It's not up to me to decide that so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt."
"However, the next logical question is: If he really is born again, why is he fillied with so much hatred?"
"I'm pretty conservative as are most of those in my church and my circle of friends and not one of them holds BJU ("Blacks Just Unworthy"?) in any regard."
"Paisley's fruit doesn't speak very well of him and certainly doesn't identify him as a follower of Christ."
"Anytime I see someone treated unfairly the way people are by thugs like BJU or Paisley or what has gone on in the North, I get a little testy."
"you constantly suport people who do, including a man who encourages his followers to commit acts of violence against them."
"As for giving him credit, don't you think it's a bit disingenuous to give credit for whatever "good" things he might have done without acknowledging his history of violence and racism?"

Your answers to Pawn Raiders original question have been nothing but pure hate-filled vitriol spewed out of a mouth that seems to have nothing good to say at all. Take a look and read your remarks again.

In regards to the last post that you made:
"The RIRA has been condemned by the IRA, Sinn Fein, both Adams and McGuiness and many, many other Republican groups."
---If that is true I was unaware of it.

However, no matter how many times you spout off "the IRA is not a ?Catholic' terrorist group" does not change the fact that it is. It always has been.
If you want information put "IRA bombings" into a google search engine and you will come out with 13,700 hits. Put in "IRA terrorism" and you will get 59,500 hits. Go ahead; have some fun. But next time you start posting your vitriol on the board back it up with facts. Prove what your saying is true. Document it. Don't just sit there and like a coward and call people thugs, fascists, racists, etc. when you don't have the evidence. Post the evidence. Prove it. Or Keep Quiet about it.
Your continuous remarks about Paisley being a racist are actually humorous, if they weren't so hateful. You see, in case you didn't know, Paisley is Irish. So are the Protestants that live there. Likewise for the Catholics. Paisley the Irishman is not discriminating against any race. What in the world are you talking about?
I don't have to ask. You are talking about baseless accusations which you cannot prove.

I had hoped that this would have ended this conversation:

quote by T2U
"I absolutely without reservation or exception condemn such terrorist violence performed by any person, Catholic and non-Catholic alike. I believe that any person who encourages or willfully incites this sort of activity is equally culpable."
"Now, DHK, do you say the same for Paisley?"

" I can speak for myself. I totally agree with you. I can't speak for any other man just as you can't, but only hope that Paisley would agree to the same." (DHK)

 

DHK, you seem to be missing the point.

Smokeater is not saying that the IRA has not been also responsible for terrorist acts.

He is saying that the IRA is not a "Catholic organization".

On a more personal note, while taking a shower this morning, I was wondering if you are ever aware of how hateful some of your words seem to some others. There is a discussion else where on this board about body piercing and how undesireable it is for a Christian because it sends the wrong message to non-Christians. But I seem to recall Jesus telling us that what comes out of our mouths is very important too.

Just food for thought.

 

DHK - is your position that there is something inherent in Roman Catholicism that leads people into terrorism or rather that many of the people who are in the IRA are Roman Catholics?

I'm sure that many of the people who ran the Japanese Interrment Camps in the forties in the U.S. were Protestants. Is there something inherent in Protestantism that makes one an oppressive bigot?

Joshua

 

"The IRA concedes it does continue to mete out crippling, occasionally lethal attacks on criminal rivals within its Catholic power bases."

quoted from an article which appeared in the Edmonton Journal, and is at:
http://www.canada.com/search/site/story.asp?id=B4A9D9C9-9938-4218-953F-7316CC157D8F

It is this type of reporting that would lead me to believe that the IRA is a Catholic organization.
DHK

[ July 29, 2002, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

For me this answers my question as to whether or not you ever think about how hateful your words sound to others.

I can't help but wonder what it must be like to feel and think as you do. I don't imagine there could be much joy in it.

 

Say what you wish, DHK. I leave it for others to see your words and spirit as they will.

In all sincerity, do you ever wonder if your words here come off as hate filled rather than loving?

 

It's true. Duke has apologized for his past and there's no record of Paisley doing so.

Your question?

Would you rather I judge him damned and on his way to Hell the way you and he has judged Catholics?

Under the circumstances, a perfectly appropriate question.

Here is a guy who professes not only to follow Christ, but to speak for Him as well and then goes out and acts in the most unChrist-like manner imaginable.

It's true. I've met very few people who consider BJU a serious school or consider them representative of mainstream Christianity.

Even the non-Christians I speak to recognize them for what they are.

Please see above.

What can I say? I am my Father's son.

It's true. You've supported him in every post in this thread.

Well? Again, a perfectly appropriate question.

I don't hate the man. I hate his actions and I hate his violent and oppresive ideology. I don't like him. I don't respect him, I resent him doing his dispcicable deeds in the name of Christ, but I don't hate him.

Sadly, he leaves me with very little good to say about him.

By your own admission and judging by many of the statements you've made, you're unaware of just about everything that's happened in the North over the last thirty years.

And no matter how many times you try to play off of the negative connotations people have of the IRA in order to disparage Catholics, they're not a Catholic organization.

The (P)IRA and the Republican movement, in general, is made up largely of Catholics and the bulk of their sympathizers are Catholic as well.

But there are two problems with saying that it's a "Catholic" group.

One is that you fail to account for the Protestants who support Republicanism, human rights for Catholics and a united and free Ireland.

Second is that you imply that the Catholic church is sympatheitic to the IRA. They're not. Although there may be individual Catholics or even priests involved, the church hierarchy has condemned the IRA.

You also imply that Catholics, in general, support the IRA. Also not true.

DHK, one could make a better argument that the Ku Klux Klan is a Protestant (dare I say, "Baptist"?) group than that the IRA is a "Catholic group".

Believe me, I'm much more aware of what has gone on in the name of the Republican movement over the last thirty years than you are. You can't even identify the main groups involved.

I've never claimed that there was no violence on the Republican side and I've never condoned the violence.

DHK, by your own admission, you don't know what you're talking about. It's not up to me to provide "proof" of what is common knowledge among those who are familiar with the situation in Northern Ireland.

I've been involved in the Republican movement in America since I was a teen and have worked with groups such as the Pat Finucane Center, the Rosemary Nelson Campaign, International Political Prisoners' Childrens' Holiday, Irish Northern Aid, Saoirse and others.

I haven't been a coward. I've gotten off my butt and put my money where my mouth is and worked for human rights in Northern Ireland.

I think it's more than just a little hypocritical of you to demand "proof" from anyone when you have time after time refused to answer even the simplest of questions.

You've admited that you really don't know what's going on and shown as much by your statements. Instead of hassling me for proof of what is common knowledge to those who are familiar with what's going on, why not educate yourself and show me why you feel that these things aren't true?

Until then, remember what Mark Twain said: "It's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you're a fool than to open it and remove all doubt".

...and Bull Connor and George Wallace were Americans but that didn't stop them (BTW, unlike Paisley, Wallace repented of his racist actions and devoted the rest of his life to civil rights and reconciliation between the races).

Actually, a large percentage of loyalists and unionists consider themselves British (hence, the name "loyalists"... )

My question to you is this: if Paisley is Irish and, according to you, he recognizes Catholics as Irishmen, why doesn't he believe that they should have the same rights as he and his Protestant/loyalist countrymen do?

It's perfectly acceptable to include anti-religious bigotry as "racism", especially when he includes actions against the Catholic people as a whole group, but for future clarification, I will say "anti-religious bigotry".

I'm happy to hear that you feel that way and hope that, one day, Paisley will, too.

As much as I'm opposed to doing this before you answer my questions, here are a couple of things just for the heck of it:

Involvement with "shadowy groups":
http://www.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/northern_ireland/1414338.stm

gives "raalying speech" to violent protesters:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/northern_ireland/latest_news/227615.stm

Article includes a statement from one of the young men whom Paisley incited to violence. Twenty years later, the man says, "Paisley sickens me". Even his own people see him for what he is:
http://www.boston.com/globe/ireland/stories/paisley.htm


http://past.thenation.com/issue980126/0126.hitc.htm

[ July 31, 2002, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

Warm Christian greetings!

Although I roundly condemn the IRA I have to acknowledge it is not a "catholic" organisation. Some priests have given the impression that they support the IRA but the RC position has been one of condemnation rather than support.

It is possible that some may feel the RCC supports the IRA because they allowed IRA terrorists who have been killed "in action" to be buried with full catholic honours. As a former catholic myself I would to like to put the rocord straight. The reason the RCC gives terrorists a catholic funeral with catholic honours is not because they support the IRA but because their theology demands it. The RCC believes that people have a second chance after death to get right with God (hence the doctrine of Purgatory), they also believe in praying for the dead. It follows, therefore, that if a terrorist is killed by the Army or blows himself up planting a bomb he/she still has a chance to get to Heaven after a stint in Purgatory. That is why the RCC buries them and prays for them.

I trust this sets the record straight.

Kind regards

Robert J Hutton.

 

I agree with you and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but by that logic, loyalist terrorists are often buried in funeral services officiated and sanctioned by Protestant churches and the Orange Order.

Does this make the UDF, UVF, RHD and other loyalist terrorist groups "protestant groups"?

We already know that the Orange Order, by their very nature, are a "Protestant group".

A valiant effort on your part but whether or not the 'Ra is Catholic or not isn't the point.

DHK is trying to take the negative connotations that the IRA has with most Americans and attach it to the Catholic church in order to drag them down because of his great hatred for Catholics.

BTW, I'm still waiting to for you to elaborate on the "ethnic cleansing" comment.

[ August 02, 2002, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

Reply to Mr "Smoke Eater":

I could make a detailed response to the comments made in your post at 2.28pm, however, I don't wish to come down to your level. It would appear from the posts made on this thread that you are allowing your personal feeelings get the better of you, and I would advise you to "calm down".

Robert J Hutton

 

I think it would be more appropriate for you to answer Smoke Eater's question.