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hearers/doers

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Jul 2, 2011.

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  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Yes, this verse bolsters exactly what I am saying.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You have posted correctly here quantum:applause::thumbsup::applause:
     
  3. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Oh no. I was not placated. When I said "according to Luke's definition of scholar, I am one", I was being sarcastic. I should have put an emoticon after that statement.

    I am NOT a scholar. Far from it.
     
  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Luke's argument is an old argument, it is error and shown in the scriptures.

    Jn 7:45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and the Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
    46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.
    47 Then answered the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?
    48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?
    49 But this people that knoweth not the law are cursed.

    The scribes and Pharisees made the same argument Luke is making now. If you do not agree with the learned scholars you must be in error. Only they have the knowledge and right to properly know and interpret the scriptures.

    Were these scribes and Pharisees correct? Or were the common unlearned people who believed on Jesus correct?

    You should be careful when you set yourself up as an authority of scripture over others, these scholars and learned men were as wrong as you could possibly be.

    And this was recorded in scripture that we might learn by example and not make the same error.

    Luke's argument is an old argument.
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You mean you are honest about definitions? :)
     
  6. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Quantum, you might have misunderstood my question, I wasn't asking you personally what authors you read, I was asking how can a person know if a writer is scriptural and correct? The ONLY way you can do that is by comparing their writings against scripture.

    Luke has probably read hundreds of books, but I would bet most if not all were Reformed. These Reformed scholars are his standard, not the scriptures. He interprets scripture to line up with Reformed theology when the correct method is to let scripture be your standard.

    The JWs have scholars, and they can do a good job of convincing you that JW doctrine is correct, especially if that is all you read.

    And of course, if all you do is read Reformed authors, you are going to be convinced it is true. But it is not necessarily true, and the scriptures must be our standard.

    And Colossians 2:8 that Benjamin posted is just that, a warning of us to beware of philosophy and vain deceit, after the rudiments of the world, after the TRADITION OF MEN, the very thing Luke seems to almost worship.
     
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    This is the kind of boasting that I am saying is the epitome of the problem of our culture.

    If you are not a scholar of the Word of God you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

    At the very least you ought to have the humility to not speak about it until you become one.

    Because until one s a scholar of the Word of God anything he says about it is very dangerous to the simpleminded.

    Here is the definition of a scholar:

    One who has ANYTHING to say about the Word of God had BETTER be learned about what he is saying concerning it; he had better be one who has a profound knowledge of what he is saying or he will face the judgment of God for handling the Word of God haphazardly.
     
  8. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Luke telling other people to be humble!

    Have you ever read David Copperfield? [snip - personal attack removed]
     
    #88 Winman, Jul 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2011
  9. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Sorry about that. I do agree with you that ultimately prayerful personal study is necessary. I do not discount, being an educator, the value of reading and studying what others have done and recorded. When all is said and done, we individually must decide what to take away from other sources, seeking the leadership of the Holy Spirit in humility.
     
  10. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Luke I think you are little touchy on the "scholar" thing. Are YOU a scholar, if not, you seem to comment quite a bit. I do not agree with you here, I know that matters not to you, just wanted to be clear.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    1. A learned person (especially in the humanities); someone who by long study has gained mastery in one or more disciplines.[Wordnet]

    2. Someone (especially a child) who learns (as from a teacher) or takes up knowledge or beliefs.[Wordnet]

    3. A student who holds a scholarship.[Wordnet]

    4. One who attends a school; one who learns of a teacher; one under the tuition of a preceptor; a pupil; a disciple; a learner; a student.[Websters]

    5. One engaged in the pursuits of learning; a learned person; one versed in any branch, or in many branches, of knowledge; a person of high literary or scientific attainments; a savant.[Websters]

    6. A man of books.[Websters]

    7. In English universities, an undergraduate who belongs to the foundation of a college, and receives support in part from its revenues.[Websters].

    specialty definitions
    Noah Webster
    1: [Noun] One who learns of a teacher; one who is under the tuition of a preceptor; a pupil; a disciple; hence, any member of a college, academy or school; applicable to the learner of any art, science or branch of literature..

    2: [Noun] A man of letters..

    3: [Noun] Emphatically used, a man eminent for erudition; a person of high attainments in science or literature..

    4: [Noun] One that learns any thing; as an apt scholar in the school of vice.. Source: Webster's 1828 American Dictionary.

    General One who by long systematic study (as in university) has gained a high degree of mastery in one or more of the academic disciplines. Source: European Union. (references)

    Tips from 1870
    Usage: Scholar, Pupil. Although these words are often used synonymously and with good authority, it would be better to limit the former to learned persons and to apply the latter to persons under instruction. Source: Slips of Speech.

    Wiktionary
    1: [Noun] A learned person. (references)

    2: [Noun] A specialist in a particular branch of knowledge. (references)

    3: [Noun] A student; one who studies at school or college. (references)

    4: [Noun] One who educates themself for their whole life. (references)
    http://www.websters-online-dictiona...&cof=FORID:9&ie=UTF-8&q=scholar&sa=Search#922

    I like my definitions better. They give a better sense of the word.
     
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Those definitions are fine. A person who is going to speak out on a matter with as great an import as theology had better be a scholar.; he had better be at least "Someone (especially a child) who learns (as from a teacher) or takes up knowledge or beliefs,"

    he had better be "... one who learns of a teacher; one under the tuition of a preceptor; a pupil; a disciple; a learner; a student'"

    he had better be "One engaged in the pursuits of learning; a learned person; one versed in any branch, or in many branches, of knowledge;"

    he had certainly better be "A man of books"- especially one book!

    and I could go on.

    I cannot imagine how ANY Christian could argue that one who speaks out on matters of eternity, things which have to do with the person and work of the Son of God does not need to be a scholar.

    I absolutely think that if you are serious; if you are really saying that one who is NOT LEARNED, one who has not devoted himself to study, is perfectly qualified to speak authoritatively on matters in which he is not learned which concern the person of Christ, that you are part of the problem that plagues our culture; you are part of the detriment which has taken us from our former glory which we knew 233 years ago and celebrate today down to the apostasy we face in our contemporary age.

    If you believe that then YOU are what I am talking about here.
     
    #92 Luke2427, Jul 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 4, 2011
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Who are you trying to make this clear to?


       /ˈskɒlər/ Show Spelled[skol-er] Show IPA
    –noun
    1.
    a learned or erudite person, especially one who has profound knowledge of a particular subject.
    2.
    a student; pupil.

    Are you seriously saying that one can speak out on matters that influence the immortal soul, on matters of the person and work of the Second Person of the Godhead without being a learned person on these matters???????????????????????????????????????????


    I find that absolutely UNTHINKABLE.

    If you mean that then I think you are part of the problem.

    I'd like to believe that you don't mean that; that perhaps there is some communication barrier here that is causing your statements.
     
  14. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    I think y'all had better decide on which definition of "scholar" you're using: One who has mastered, or one who is learning.

    Me, personally, I think the correct answer is: Both.

    But if you think there's an end to the learning of the Word, that there is a point where you've mastered it and can learn nothing more about it...then define what that point is, agree on it, and use it as the basis to say that only those persons who have reached that point are allowed to discuss the "deeper" matters of theology.

    Otherwise, there's only one recourse: Anyone who has guts enough to come on a message board like this, and have their opinion challenged, and continue to come back and learn what others have to say, and gain knowledge about other source references that they can read and learn from, fulfills the definition of "scholar." Those that don't like having their opinion challenged, usually don't stay around.

    Which means, pretty much everyone who posts on Baptist Board, for any length of time, especially in the Theology areas, is a scholar.

    Just my opinion. Which is like armpits. Everyone has two, and some smell a whole lot worse than others.
     
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    If being a "scholar" has ANYTHING to do with MASTERING ANY subject then NO ONE is a SCHOLAR on ANYTHING.

    Who has MASTERED physics?? Who has come to know all there is to know about it?? Not even Einstein. So there is NO physics scholar.

    Who has MASTERED the musical arts?? Were Beethoven or Mozart familiar with every harmony that could ever be achieved???

    Such a notion is silly!

    A scholar is a devout student of a subject or as DHK shared with us "...one who learns of a teacher; one under the tuition of a preceptor; a pupil; a disciple; a learner; a student."

    And you had darn well better be a scholar before you open your mouth on matters that concern the person of the Son of God.

    The most wicked blasphemies ever set forth have come from people who purported things about the person and work of Jesus Christ haphazardly.

    The hottest fires in hell are reserved for such people- and rightly so.
     
  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I'll interject this one scripture which gives support to both sides if this issue:

    Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.​

    The inspired notable words here:​

    unlearned: agrammatos - in context - a word indicating no formal education in the scripture.​

    Ignorant: idiotes - An interesting word.​

    On the other hand they noted that they had been with Jesus (For three years). ​

    HankD​
     
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Yes and that last point really is the issue here. Having been under the tutelage of the Son of God qualified them most assuredly as scholars of the Word. In fact note what the Bible Dictionary says about the word DISCIPLE which is what they were called- Jesus' "disciples".

    emphasis mine
     
  18. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    "A scholar is a devout student of a subject or as DHK shared with us "...one who learns of a teacher; one under the tuition of a preceptor; a pupil; a disciple; a learner; a student."

    That is true, but the teacher isn't man, as you have said in many posts. Man can only spark the interest. The teacher of the great truths of this Bible is only the Holy Spirit. You think too much of man's wisdom, I am afraid, after reading this whole thread.

    I Cor. 2: 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
    1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    I say that all a person needs is a desire to know the Scriptures and to study them, asking the Holy Spirit to reveal what they mean. Study helps can be used, so I guess in that regard a human teacher is used. Man is always prejudiced by his pet doctrines, but the Holy Spirit has no agenda but to reveal unto us the real glory of Christ.
     
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    In fact the Greek word for "disciple" comes from the Greek word "manthano" which means to increase knowledge, to learn and be appraised.

    What they took note of concerning the disciples was that they could speak with great authority even though they had no formal education and they understood that their learning came from the Master Himself. They understood that they did not increase their knowledge in some school but that they had increased their knowledge at the feet of Jesus.

    A scholar and a disciple is the same thing. Disiple only adds that one PRACTICES what he learns.

    I cannot see how anyone could argue that one should not seek to be a scholar of the Word before speaking out on it.

    The disciples were most ASSUREDLY scholars of the Word.
     
  20. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    "I cannot see how anyone could argue that one should not seek to be a scholar of the Word before speaking out on it."

    Philippians 3:16 (KJV)
    16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

    I understand what you are saying, but disagree that one has to be a scholar to speak out about God's Word. No one should speak concerning the Scriptures more than God has given them understanding at that point thru the Holy Spirit. But it isn't wrong to speak concerning what God HAS revealed, even though one is not an expert on the complete subject. Just as human children have to drink milk to begin with, so do spiritual children of God. We are told in Romans that we must confess Christ with out mouth. It is up to the Church to disciple them and teach them to study the Scriptures and to let the Holy Spirit guide them. It is up to the Church to rebuke them if they go too far and speak concerning things they don't understand. But don't call them wicked. Speak the truth in love to them. After all, the point is we want to correct them, not rub their nose in their sin.

    Galatians 6:1-3 (KJV)
    1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
    2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
    3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
     
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