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Heaven populated w/out the cross?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Luke2427, Jan 26, 2011.

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  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Isn't that what happened to Adam? He had fellowship with God and because of his rebellion and breaking of God's law, he lost it.
    Isn't that why we have to be "redeemed" or bought back?

    If you go where Calvinistic logic takes you, all babies who die go to hell. They have no faith therefore they cannot be saved.
     
    #21 Amy.G, Jan 26, 2011
  2. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Ann there is no doubt that this would be logical as men goes, but it is not biblically correct. There is no law given that can cause anyone who lose an inheritance (become lost, become unsaved or what ever we might call it)
    All Children are in Adam and all of Adam's children are born dead in sin.
     
    #22 freeatlast, Jan 26, 2011
  3. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    This is definitely the issue. We can't build a doctrine to know for sure that babies go to heaven or not and how and why for either way. However, I trust God and know that whatever He does, it's right, it's fair and it's the only way it should be. I know Him well enough to say "I don't know the answer but God is good."
     
    #23 annsni, Jan 26, 2011
  4. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I don't see any Scripture that says that we begin like Adam before the fall and then become like Adam after the fall. Instead, I see that was a line drawn in time and there was "pre-fall" with just Adam and Eve and then "post-fall" with every other person in history.

    Actually, it's just the opposite. It is Arminianism that has all children going to hell because they don't make that choice of their own free will. Instead, Calvinism, which I see supported in Scripture is that God chooses man and man responds. Now, if it is God who chooses man, can't He choose a baby and the baby respond in the way that they can? I mean, my babies from birth were able to make choices so why not this as well? Can not God reach them where they are and give them the Gospel at the point at where they are? See, if it is God who does it, it's very consistent with Calvinism.
     
    #24 annsni, Jan 26, 2011
  5. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Exactly. :thumbsup:
     
    #25 annsni, Jan 26, 2011
  6. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    If you go where Calvinistic logic takes you, all babies who die go to hell. They have no faith therefore they cannot be saved.
    --------------------------------------------------------

    Not so. Calvinists maintain that grace and faith are the gifts of God. Should God claim a life early on, He can just as well apply His grace and faith to that child.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #26 Jim1999, Jan 26, 2011
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Excellent post :thumbs:
     
    #27 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  8. R. Lawson

    R. Lawson New Member

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    This will be quite terse:

    Any person who believes babies go to Hell are moral monsters.:tear: Even when I WAS a Calvinist I believed that babies were elect. Wayne Grudem gives some good reasons why babies do not go to Hell (think John and the Holy Spirit entering into him while in the womb).

    Robb
     
    #28 R. Lawson, Jan 26, 2011
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...let's not forget the "orthodox" position there is some other mysterious salvation out there we don't know about that does not require faith.
     
    #29 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Based on this, the only possibility is all children that die are in hell.
     
    #30 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    This is mere science fiction given the Bible tells us who and how one has faith. If you will hold to this, then it's also possible the muslim in the split second before breathing his last breath will be given this mysterious gift of saving faith and grace. Maybe atheists. Maybe everyone will.

    This is what happens when you allow doctrine to interpret Bible.
     
    #31 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I asked this on another thread and nobody answered it. Maybe I will get an honest answer here. If I say "all have showered", who are the "all"? Is this everyone ever born?
     
    #32 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  13. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    [SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Here is the problem So many times we want to judge God even if not intentially. heaven is not about being fair. fairness is based on the idea that we at least deserve something in some part. heaven is about grace. If I drive though downtown Houston and see the box people i am not unfair if i do not give everyone a hot drink or a sandwich. I can choose anyone person or any number of persons to shed grace on, or no one, but it is not about being fair. it would be grace. The same with children and heaven. Anyone who goes to heaven goes because of grace, not fairness.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
    How that grace is applied to a child or if it is I do not know. I do believe that it probably is, but how i do not know, but I do know it is not because God is exercising fairness.
    [/SIZE]
     
    #33 freeatlast, Jan 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2011
  14. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Why do very good and moral men go to hell? It's all the same reason. I'm sorry but if there are any babies in hell, it is right. Are there babies in hell? I don't know. God never tells us. Are there babies in heaven? I don't know - God never tells us (do they stay as babies or are they adults in heaven??) Again, we cannot say because we cannot know. Why did God kill infants by His own hand? Does that make Him a monster?
     
    #34 annsni, Jan 26, 2011
  15. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Like babies going to heaven?
     
    #35 annsni, Jan 26, 2011
  16. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    No because in the context of the statement it makes the statement limited. When dealing with scripture, context carries the weight of the meaning as well as other truths that apply to the a statement.
     
    #36 freeatlast, Jan 26, 2011
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    People found not guilty being in Heaven is a mystery?
     
    #37 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Yes...and the context is the same. All with the ability to sin have. The "all" in all have sinned are those who have sinned, not those who were conceived. Have sinned and have showered are both actions, not conditions.
     
    #38 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Actually He did with the story of David's son perishing.
    I actually see it as an act of mercy. It has been appointed unto man once to die as it is. When taking the life of an infant born to a pagan, in all probability that child would grow up the same. God always uses bad for good, even the heinous act of abortion.
     
    #39 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  20. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    It depends on the context. If you were at camp and you told the director "All have showered", does that mean every single person in the world - or all of those people that were in the camp at that time?
     
    #40 annsni, Jan 26, 2011
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