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Heaven populated w/out the cross?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Luke2427, Jan 26, 2011.

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  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    David's account with his deceased son is a start. Actually the only one needed, in fact.
     
    #61 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    How do you not see this as an act of mercy? Would it have been better for them to grow up pagans like their parents and separated from God for eternity...or for them to die as infants?
     
    #62 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I believe they are affected by sin, they have a sin nature and will sin. It's part of human nature. Infants have it in their nature to walk and talk at birth, but clearly are not walkers and talkers from conception.
    If they are sinners, and make it to Heaven apart by faith in Christ, it's more than a mystery...it's calling the Bible and what it says about salvation a lie. There is no mystery on how sinners are saved no matter how old. Every reprobate was at one time an infant...think about that. If there is some mysterious dispensation for all infants, then God withheld His salvation from them when they grew older.
     
    #63 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  4. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    So David lied when he said he would go to be where his son was? I'm sure he didn't become un-depressed and started eating again looking forward to going to the grave as most Augustinians try to twist his words.
     
    #64 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  5. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Well, do we build a theology on David? I don't think so. Could it be that he is even speaking of the grave?
     
    #65 annsni, Jan 26, 2011
  6. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Then why don't we do this to all newborns? Wouldn't that be more merciful? Why get so angry at this doctor who murdered newborn babies at an abortion clinic? He did those babies a large favor then.
     
    #66 annsni, Jan 26, 2011
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Why not? Are we to assume the man after God's own heart to be in great error?

    I think the grave theory regarding this text is comical. Why would he stop mourning and start eating again in anticipation of death? That makes no sense based on the context of his statement.

    I can see it now. Upon hearing his son is dead, not knowing if his son is in Hell or with the Lord he stops mourning in anticipation his bones will be in the same cave as his sons. That would make me stop mourning.
     
    #67 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Why? Because murder is wrong. That doesn't mean God doesn't use hurt and sin for His benefit (and ours).
     
    #68 webdog, Jan 26, 2011
  9. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    [SIZE=+0]
    [SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]It is not about David lying. It is about what exactly did David mean and is the statement prophetic. Yes the statement is accurate as recorded to what David said, but that does not make it prophetic. There are many statements made in the bible that are nothing but statements and carry no backing from God as to Him carrying them out. So again David's statement is up to interpretation as to what he means as well if the statement is an absolute guarantee from God.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+0] In other words is the statement just what David believed or what God is saying will happen to all children the age of David's child? The passage is way too vague to build a doctrine on and say with any kind of absolute authority one way or the other. it is possible that it means all children go to heaven when they die, but it is way to murky to know exactly and where the age limit stops. [/SIZE]
    [/SIZE]
     
    #69 freeatlast, Jan 26, 2011
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Umm - Bathsheba ring a bell? :laugh:

    Well, some people move on with life after there is nothing more to do. I remember reading about colonial times where the death of an infant or child was commonplace and while it was terrible and traumatic, many times they DID just move on with life. I wonder if it could be the same kind of situation. He certainly could no longer do anything to bring his son back and he knew it.
     
    #70 annsni, Jan 26, 2011
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Unscriptural, pagan claptrap.

    They are corrupt from conception.
     
    #71 Aaron, Jan 26, 2011
  12. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    I understand your sarcasm, but this is a totally unacceptable sentiment and statement. Welcome to club, although I doubt that most of my "free willer" compatriots will pound you about this.
     
    #72 quantumfaith, Jan 26, 2011
  13. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    But I love my children. I absolutely without a doubt more than anything else want them to walk with the Lord. If I thought that there were two paths, one would guarantee their eternal life and the other would have a good chance at their eternal death, I'd choose the first. It would be the merciful thing to do, just as Webdog said.
     
    #73 annsni, Jan 26, 2011
  14. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    ditto brother
    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #74 quantumfaith, Jan 26, 2011
  15. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Babies are born with a sin nature and they will sin, but what sin does a 4 week old baby commit?

    BTW, I can't place the image in your avatar. Who is it?
     
    #75 InTheLight, Jan 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2011
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Both of you had better be VERY careful. I do not figure that God does consign infants to torment, but it is NOT clear in Scripture.

    If he in fact DOES, then you may damn your own souls by refusing to worship him- if he does, and any HONEST person would have to admit that we do not know, your remarks are blasphemy in the highest degree.

    Even Christopher Hitchens is no more blasphemous than you if you are wrong.

    You may remain a free willer the rest of your days but you'd better agree with Calvinists on this one point- God is God and he is beyond your figuring out and he does whatsoever he pleases without regard to what YOU think is right and wrong.

    You'd better get that one right if you don't get anything else right in your life.

    I am not upset with you- at this point I am genuinely concerned.
     
    #76 Luke2427, Jan 26, 2011
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    It's Moses by Michelangelo.

    I do not think anybody is arguing that a baby "commits" sin per say.

    We are saying that they are sinners in need of the blood of Christ to get to heaven.

    What willis and webdog is saying is against Orthodox Christianity.

    I cannot find ANYONE in church history of the orthodox faith who held to what they are saying.
     
    #77 Luke2427, Jan 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2011
  18. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    To dismiss one of the greatest theological minds in the history of the World on his hamartialogy because he is a pedobaptist is ignorant.

    No Calvinist, Arminian, Molinist or any other reputable theologian would say such a ridiculous thing about Augustine.

    This is the problem with guys who have very little training who bite off far more than they can chew theologically. They develop new doctrines and establish positions which the entirety of the Orthodox Faith has never entertained.

    But they don't care- that is astonishingly arrogant to me.
     
    #78 Luke2427, Jan 26, 2011
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    It has already been explained to you why this idea does not allow for atheists and Muslims, etc... to go to Heaven.

    You are just arguing because you like to argue- not because you have a point.
     
    #79 Luke2427, Jan 26, 2011
  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    This is within the scope of Orthodoxy, webdog, you just don't know enough about the subject to recognize it.
     
    #80 Luke2427, Jan 26, 2011
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