Heaven?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Patriot, Sep 22, 2003.

  1. Patriot

    Patriot
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    What is the Baptist theological explanation for Psalms 37:29? I am currently preaching to a JW and they use this verse to support that they will live in earth forever.
     
  2. Grasshopper

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    Here is the definition given by Strongs for the word "forever".

    perpetuity, for ever, continuing future

    Now I have an explanation, but it comes from a Preterist viewpoint so you probably won't be interested. I'll let the futurist handle this one.
     
  3. Gunther

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    The Scriptures do in fact teach that we live forever on the earth with Christ. As a futurist, there is no problem. The problem is for the amill and postmill.

    I challenge anyone to demonstrate from Scripture that we live forever in heaven.
     
  4. BrianT

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    How is it a problem for the amill/postmill? Christ returns, and establishes new heaven and new earth and eternal kingdom. No problem. [​IMG]
     
  5. Gunther

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    Amill sees many of the earthly promises as spiritually fulfilled.

    It was Augustine and his change of normal hermenuetics that introduced the idea of living forever in heaven.

    The fathers fully expected to live forever on the earth.
     
  6. BrianT

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    Some see some of the earthly promises as fulfilled. But the core issue that distinguishes amill and postmill from premill is where to put the "1000 years" on the timeline. Many amillers believe simply that Christ will return, establish the new heaven and new earth, and off we go into eternity.
     
  7. Trotter

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    Aren't you forgetting that after the 1000 year reign, Satan is loosed and defeated, and the earth is erased and recreated?

    And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    (Rev 20:11 KJV)

    "From whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and THERE WAS FOUND NO PLACE FOR THEM." Peter describes it as :
    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    (2Pe 3:10 KJV)

    If you really want to stump your JW, ask them about the great white throne judgement in Rev. 20:
    And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    (Rev 20:11-15 KJV)
    I had a conversation with one of the JW elders (the missionary who came to my door asked to bring him back), and he claimed that he had never heard of it, and became agitated when I used his Bible to show it to him. Seems they don't care for the fact that "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

    In Christ,
    Trotter

    PS- One verse does not a doctrine make.
     
  8. Gunther

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    Brian, this issue isn't about the timeline. I am saying that the expectation of the earliest fathers and the biblical writers was eternity ON THE EARTH.

    The amill position does not agree.

    My challenge is to find any passage that hints at eternity in heaven.
     
  9. BrianT

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    I know it's not about the timeline. I only mentioned it because the timeline is the significant difference, not where eternity is spent. I am amill (i.e. I see the "1000 years" as covering the "church age"), and yet I agree with "eternity on the earth" after Christ returns. This is not in conflict with amill in general, only with certain amillers in specific. Just like some premillers believe in eternity in heaven while other premillers believe in eternity on the earth - so it is with amillers.
     
  10. Gunther

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    Brian, the premillers that believe that are ignorant to what premill really is then. Part of the problem is that Evangelism Explosion begins with that line and most people accept it as true. It isn't though. Kennedy (an amiller) missed the boat bigtime, but I repeat myself [​IMG] .
     
  11. gb93433

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    How would you interpret 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17?

    1 Thess 4:16,17, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."
     
  12. Gunther

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    Whether you are pretrib or posttrib, you still believe we return with the Lord. Wherever he is, we will be. He will be on the earth. We will be also.
     
  13. Trotter

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    The view of heaven that most people have is totally off. Contrary to what is believed, we won't spend eternity in the clouds, or somewhere beyond the stars.

    Those who belong to Christ go to where He is when they die (the Bible doesn't give specifics on the location). When Christ returns, all of the redeemed who have died come back with Him, to reign with Christ for 1000 years:

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5)

    After this 1000 year reign, Satan is loosed for his final asault. He is defeated and cast into the lake of fire for eternity, and then:

    And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Rev. 20:11)

    "From whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." The earth and heaven (can we say everything) is no more, time has ended. But this is not the end. God then judges those who were not raised in the first resurrection (the lost), and they are cast into the lake of fire. This is followed by:

    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Rev. 21:1)

    "A new heaven and a new earth." Why? "For the first heaven and the first earth were passed away."

    What does all this mean? We will (eventually) spend eternity on earth, but not this one. And although the New Jerusalem will be there (Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.) , there will be more who live there than a paltry 144,000 the JW claim (of which all 144,000 have already been filled, according to their higher-ups!), and never minding that the 144,000 mentioned are Jews (let's not even get started on the "spiritual Jews" thing...).

    Oh, and as far as Psalm 37:29...

    Psa 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

    David is speaking of God's treatment of the righteous. The passage is not speaking of where anyone will live forever. It is talking of God's love and rememberance of the righteous. Taken in view of the finished work of the cross, it can be seen as a beautiful picture of redemption.

    Always be wary of verses pulled out of context, especially when used by any type of cult (define as you see fit). Any arguement under the sun can find validation through "proof-texts", ripped bleeding from their native habitats. Look at the Mormon (moron, whatever) practice of baptism for the dead, from just a single reference that Paul made to a pagan practice.

    Just something to think about...

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  14. Lacy Evans

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    I *gulp* agree with Gunther.

    Lacy
     

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