Heb 6..what does it mean?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Jarthur001, Jul 19, 2005.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    Below you will find a post from another tread. I have tried to post my reply many times today, but for some reason it does not work. So...i just thought i would start a new tread.

    1st the other post.....
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    Where is the assurance in light of Calvins evanescent grace?“... Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption .... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith .... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent” (3.2.11, Institutes).
    ************************************
    END OF POST


    OK..hold your seats..

    I'm about to disagree with calvin

    I think John Calvin is talking about hebrew 6 here. The view that calvin teaches is held by many. I would say that most in the calvin camp hold to this view as calvin says from Hebrew 6

    However..i do not feel this is the right view.

    A person can not be halfway saved. When the Bible talks of faith...it is talking about faith in God...or trusting in God. I do not feel this is what is in hebrews 6 for this is talking about those that have been saved. You need to go back to hebrew 5. In heb 5..near the end paul...or the writer,,i think its paul...talks about those that have been saved..and have not grown in the Lord.

    These guys thought they needed to start all over if they sinned. They thought if they sinned..they needed to be saved again. Paul is saying...do not get saved again. its over..move on...GROW in Christ.


    5:12 .....you should be teachers by now....but you are still babes drink milk
    5:13...for every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word....he is a babe
    5:14...strong meat..belongs to the full of aged...or those that haven grown...

    6:1...therefore...LEAVE...the principles...or basic suff...and be perfect....or grow...not laying again...not starting again...where you started...at repentance.

    in other words...salvation is DONE...no need to get saved again. stop going back to the beginning

    6:2...stop holding on to the rites of the OT....or the rites of the jews...where we once lived.

    6;3..you guys can do this...if you follow God


    now the passage calvin is talking about


    6:4....For it is IMPOSSIBLE for you that are enlightened...or saved...have faith in God...and have tasted...or known this salvation....and partakers of the Holy spirit...SAVED.

    hey listen...no one has the holy spirit...but those that are saved!!! this is talking about the saved man.

    6:5...it is IMPOSSIBLE..from 6...to taste God and the powers of heaven....

    6:6...and IF you fall back....fall into sin...to renew..to repentance again.

    ok...if this is losing salvation...one you have it..if you lose it..then you never get it again. hold on..let move on and see what else it says..

    6:6b......the reason why this is impossible....
    is that Christ died ONCE for our sins. If we have to go though the basic (from chapter 5)...of salvation again..this would be like palce Christ on the cross again...and this would be a OPEN shame about Christ...to the world.

    6:7 the reason why...well look at the herbs your walk with Christ....for this is to the saved.... is like the herbs get blessing from the rain..and they grow....and the rain is from God. so...as we grow..we see good herbs. but that is not all we see...for we still have a sin nature.

    6:8...but in with the herbs..grown thorns and briers...and this is rejected..but burned. this is not unsaved...this comes from everyday life. hey guys..sometimes we sin.

    6:9....but we know that you guys have salvation..

    6:10.....for..we know of your work...or your herbs..which you have shown in Gods love

    6:11...so we hope..ALL do the same...showning good herbs of Gods love.

    6:12...follow others that has grown these Good herbs though faith

    6;13...just like God promised Abraham...

    6:14...blessing will come...good hrebs will come...for abraham had faith..

    6:15....and he endured...made it though the rough times...made it thought when bad briers ...grow in his life...

    6:16-18 God said..and it is impossible for God to lie...God said...and he confirmed it with a oath...God said...we can be strong...and flee the sin moments...the bad brier moments..and find refuge in Him

    6:19..so we have hope that you will be stedfast..in the faith..

    6:20...For Jesus is our high priest.


    anyway...i think Calvin is wrong here. but in the end..salvation is forever.


    this is my own understanding...
    that does not mean it is right...i just do not hold to calvin on this.

    salvation is forever....YES


    In Christ...James
     
  2. whetstone

    whetstone
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    Scratching my head... [​IMG]
     
  3. Jarthur001

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    well..this is what calvin teaches. The tasting...of heb 6...is those that hear Gods word...nearly believe....and yet walk away.

    This could not be the case...
    for the passage say...they had the holy spirit.

    still..this is passage is not saying we can lose our salvation. The way i read it....even if you could...and it says you can't...be even if you could...then you can not go back and get saved again.

    In Christ...james
     
  4. webdog

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    well..this is what calvin teaches. The tasting...of heb 6...is those that hear Gods word...nearly believe....and yet walk away.

    This could not be the case...
    for the passage say...they had the holy spirit.

    still..this is passage is not saying we can lose our salvation. The way i read it....even if you could...and it says you can't...be even if you could...then you can not go back and get saved again.

    In Christ...james
    </font>[/QUOTE][​IMG] You're right on the money! My pastor growing up used to say "show me scripture where you can lose your salvation, and I'll show you scripture where you'll never get it back!"
     
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    That is parallel to the scripture that declares that there will never be another atonement for sin. If you accept the Atonement for sin by Jesus, then fall back into sinning, there will never be another atonement for sin!

    If you lose your faith in God, which is the only thing that you possess completely, then you lose your salvation! Our salvation does not occur in this natural lifetime! Our faith does. Salvation comes once We depart this life, for it is appointed to man once to die then the judgment.

    Since All men die, does that mean that all men are not saved? Isn't salvation everlasting life? If all men die, then no one is saved?

    Since our salvation does not occur in this lifetime, we can only have faith that we are to be saved when we taste natural death. Our salvation, for those who have faith when they die, comes to us after this life is over. And salvation is only assured if you die with faith in God in your spirit.

    So, if you come to believe, then later stop believing, you lose your salvation! Hense all the scriptural warning to keep the faith, to not fall away, to never cease to have faith. To persevere to the end. If you cannot lose your faith all those warnings are pure vanity and needless.

    You cannot lose what you don't already possess and not one of us possesses salvation while living this natural life. What we do possess is FAITH in the one who made the PROMISE of everlasting life if we keep our faith in God throughout this life and die with faith in God in our spirit.

    If you think you cannot lose your faith, you're crazy! Man loses faith an nearly everything he has faith in. The most volatile faith is faith in money! Money comes and goes, if you have faith in it, your faith comes and goes too! Most of us have faith in a spouse, the divorce rate in the US is now over 50%, 1 out of two marriages end in divorce, so if your faith is in your spouse you have a 50-50 chance of success!

    If you have faith in the name of Jesus, thus you accept his promise of everlasting life, and you never stop believing in that name, you have a 100% probability of success...the bible says so. However, if you do not retain YOUR faith in the name of Jesus, You go immediately from 100% probability of success, to 0% probability of success.

    Only those who have faith in Jesus when they die from this natural life, will receive the fulfillment of the promise. Salvation is based on your faith alone.

    No one can faith for you!
     
  6. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    all i can say wes...

    I'm glad i do not have to work to keep my salvation.

    how many sins do you have to sin..before one loses your salvation wes?
    1?
    2?
    25?
    100?

    i'll get back on this tomorrow...i'm working today..
    no really i am...stop laughing...i really am
     
  7. whetstone

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    i tend to believe the verse in question is referring to a person who never was saved and simply partook in the things of God for awhile. I don't think any false hope was given to them by God- but perhaps they knew all along that they were charlaitans. My opinion anyways.
     
  8. Jarthur001

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    yes..as i said whetstone. that is the view held by most calvinist.

    I could not hold to this because of context...and the "Holy Spirit" part.

    I came to this on my own...so this is very up for debate. I think it fits the text

    But in the end whetstone, this is for sure...

    this is not talking about man lossing salvation..right?
    just study it one time from my view and see. maybe you will not agree with me...and that is fine.

    this just shows that we do not just lay down our brains because calvin says it. anything said..must past the test of the bible. I'm sure you do this too whetstone.

    brain washed..NO..washed in the blood..YES


    In Christ...james
     
  9. BobRyan

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    Good for you.

    Now you're on the right track!


    So far so good.

    You are correct again.

    What is more to the point is that Heb 6 condemns them from falling from this saved position.

    It is not bad to "FAIL" to remain "halfway saved but still lost". In fact you HOPE to FAIL to stay in such a mythical and yet doomed state!

    And what is worse the idea that it is "Impossible to RENEW THEM AGAIN" speaks of trying to get them BACK to that fatal state and the lamentable fact that once fallen we can not find away to get them back into that cursed condition!!

    Surely Calvin makes a huge mess of this text!!


    Right again. Context is everything!

    However Heb 6 advances the point beyond a saved babe-in-Christ!

    Nice going James! Welcome to the light.

    Hebrews 5 identifies the readers. Chapter six shows the danger they are in if they pursue their course of action and then says "But we are convinced of much better things concerning you".

    In other words the danger warned about in 6:1-7 is a potential for the group but they had not already GONE to that point of danger. Paul identifies them in chapter 5 pointing out their error. Then he warns them in chapter 6 of the danger of pursuing that error showing what its ultimate end would be. He then points out that those people have not gone to the point that he warns about saying "we are convinced of much better things than that concerning you".

    Ahhh "the details". How nice to be able to just accept them as they read!


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    you mean bob agrees? humm ...maybe i better check what i said.
    [​IMG]

    just digging at ya.

    BTW...nice to meet ya.

    In the Light...James
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    Oh? But then you'd be wrong! Because if you don't work to keep your faith in God, your faith is dead faith! And not long after that you lose your faith and without faith you cannot be saved!

    It's not a numbers game my friend, it is entirely attitude!
     
  12. johnp.

    johnp.
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    After all Wes knows Wes and he is entirely confident that the work that Wes began Wes will see through to the end. :cool:

    john.
     
  13. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

    1PE 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
     
  14. TexasSky

    TexasSky
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    I believe that Salvation comes through acceptance of Christ, but I also believe that once a person has asked Christ into their life, they become reborn, and that the reborn person will cease to "continually sin" without being called back to repentence.

    I was thinking about that today.

    Saul was positive he was right - and I think he was enjoying his fame as the great killer of Christians - right until the moment Christ said, "Why are you persecuting me?"

    Then, he didn't just change his name. Saul died and Paul was born. He'd been a legalistic Pharisee (actually, that's the only kind of Pharisee there is), and suddenly he was saying, "Hey, you don't even have to be Jewish, much less circumcised." He went from killing Christians to loving everyone, especially sinners.

    Overnight!

    So, for those who think I'm Armenian - Nope. ;)

    But I'm not Calvinist either.

    I think you're both wrong.
     
  15. whatever

    whatever
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    I disagree with Calvin too. It has to be talking about those who are actually saved. It doesn't make sense otherwise.
     
  16. Petrel

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    Cross bump--The thread here (&lt;--clicky!) links to a series of sermons on this topic by bridgeway. From reading his interpretation of this passage I think it is not talking about those who are saved losing their salvation.
     
  17. philg

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    Good for you.

    Now you're on the right track!


    So far so good.

    You are correct again.

    What is more to the point is that Heb 6 condemns them from falling from this saved position.

    It is not bad to "FAIL" to remain "halfway saved but still lost". In fact you HOPE to FAIL to stay in such a mythical and yet doomed state!

    And what is worse the idea that it is "Impossible to RENEW THEM AGAIN" speaks of trying to get them BACK to that fatal state and the lamentable fact that once fallen we can not find away to get them back into that cursed condition!!

    Surely Calvin makes a huge mess of this text!!


    Right again. Context is everything!

    However Heb 6 advances the point beyond a saved babe-in-Christ!

    Nice going James! Welcome to the light.

    Hebrews 5 identifies the readers. Chapter six shows the danger they are in if they pursue their course of action and then says "But we are convinced of much better things concerning you".

    In other words the danger warned about in 6:1-7 is a potential for the group but they had not already GONE to that point of danger. Paul identifies them in chapter 5 pointing out their error. Then he warns them in chapter 6 of the danger of pursuing that error showing what its ultimate end would be. He then points out that those people have not gone to the point that he warns about saying "we are convinced of much better things than that concerning you".

    Ahhh "the details". How nice to be able to just accept them as they read!


    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]Bob, great commentary on this passage.
    It is clear that he is talking about saved individuals for they "tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    "
    I belive they tasted of this heavenly gift the same way that Jesus tasted death for every man in Hebrews 2:9
    Jesus did not just almost die and the people in hebrews chapter 6 were not just almost saved. They were saved.
     
  18. Jarthur001

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    Oh? But then you'd be wrong! Because if you don't work to keep your faith in God, your faith is dead faith! And not long after that you lose your faith and without faith you cannot be saved!

    It's not a numbers game my friend, it is entirely attitude!
    </font>[/QUOTE]bob..when you say faith are you saying trust?

    most people say trust is a better word to use...for it means more to us. Trust in God = faith in God

    is this how you see it?
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    Since it is my post that you quoted, I am Wes, Outwest, The scriptures tend to use faith, Belief, and trust interchangably. Personally, I don't like trust as much as I do faith, because "trusts" are so easily broken whereas one must 'lose' their own faith, no one can take it from you. The meaning of trust is simply weaker in my mind, than faith.

    That doesn't mean that I don't trust, it simply means that I FAITH better.
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Exellent points!

    Both sides agree that Paul is not writing to people that have back-slidden from Christianity and no longer read scripture etc.Rather the READER is going to be some Christian with a copy of the letter to the Hebrews - probably one who is faithful. That is not the issue.
    Not unlike the example Christ gives of the rocky ground where the seed of eternal life DOES bring forth life and for a time it grows and flourishes - life from the dead - as ONLY God can bring about. Brought "to repentance" in such a GOOD way that when one falls away we might seek to RENEW them to such a GOOD state.

    But then.... it perishes.

    IN the case of those WHO HAVE once BEEN enlightened!

    (This is the view of the lost - in darkness ACCEPTING light such that they ARE enlightened - at least at one time).

    AND have tasted of the heavenly gift

    Not the description of the totally depraved lost.


    AND have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
    5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,


    This is never the description of the totally depraved lost experience.

    "AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY"

    clearly FALLING away from being LOST is not a bad thing - it is a GOOD thing.


    This one is just too hard to miss and too easy to see!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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