Hebrew 1, then to 6, two gospels

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ituttut, Jul 9, 2004.

  1. ituttut

    ituttut
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    As a Gentile, this book, Hebrews, has information for me, but is geared especially to the Hebrew. But all scripture is for us to read, and apply where applicable. We are to discard that which does not apply to us today in this dispensation, but we are to understand it. So it is imperative to know just who is being addressed here. Hebrews 1:1 gives us this information. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, written to God’s own people, the nation of Israel. God had given up on we heathens back then, and while Jesus was on this earth. Jesus plainly tells us He did not come for we dogs.

    From this starting point we can see what Paul is talking about. There were two gospels during the time of the Apostles. Verse 1 of Hebrews 6 contains the key to understanding. One was replacing the other, for something “out of this world” had happened. Something God had kept to Himself from the beginning, Ephesians 3:9.

    Verse 1 -”Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God”. See II Corinthians 5:16-19. Paul is saying just listen to me, believe my gospel that Christ gave to me, and we will go on to perfection. Leaving the principles (while Jesus was on earth), then on to perfection, with the “good news” that Christ shed His blood for us, and arose and ascended to His Father, and the Old Covenant of the Law has been “nailed to the Cross”. They can, and have now come through faith, and this is perfection. Through the Spirit, and through Christ Jesus, we can now freely approach God the Father. This was never possible for man to do before. Unheard of and never prophesied. God always knew this, but no one else. In the Spirit through Christ Jesus, we now have access to God. God the Father, God the Word/Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I really cannot even come close to comprehending this.

    Paul tells them to not try and lay down AGAIN the foundation of Jesus. Why? Because it is impossible for Jesus to start all over; but if it could be done (they become unsaved-God Forbid), repentance would not again be available. In one fell swoop, when we come to Christ Jesus, we find repentance in our belief. All our sins are forgiven; we are baptized, justified, sanctified, and sealed. We never have to repent again, as all our past, present, and future sins have been forgiven. We not only turned to him when we believed, but when we went toward Him the Spirit then turned us, baptizing us into Jesus Christ’s death, and we are dead to sins. If we are dead in Him, He will raise us. We are sealed. That is the reason repentance as been accomplished once and for all. We can be sorry when we sin, if all our sins have been forgiven, why would we keep on asking they be forgiven. Where are they. They cannot be found. We are to Thank Him for what He has done, not put into question if He did or didn’t take all our sins away. If we don’t believe this, are we not continuing to “crucify him afresh”, verse 6 – ”If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame”.

    Does this mean that these Jews could become unsaved? Of course not, as what they are doing is giving up their freedom to go back under the law, which will not produce any rewards for them as noted in , II Timothy 2:11-13 ”It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13. If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself”. Paul hasn’t turned now and changed what he tells us in other places. . . ..Can we say the Jew can become unsaved after reading in the very same chapter, verses 17-20. Jewish talk indeed. Even if they fall back under the law, Jesus is still their High Priest, as they want to become carnal again, like the Corinthian church, and do I dare say the churches of today? Look in Ephesians 2:8, or how about II Timothy 1:9, then again in Titus 1:2. This is the Body of Christ, and not marching into the kingdom on the tailcoats of the Jew. We are in Christ Jesus.

    If we believe we can fall from grace, but not out of grace, we must rightly divide the Word of God. We can run away from home (His light), but where can we go? He’ll bring us back, as He can’t let go of us.
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    There is only one gospel in all of Scripture, and it includes Hebrews. Hebrews was written to Christians living in the church age and instructs them about their life in the church age.

    When the author (not Paul) says we should not lay again the foundation, he does not say "of Jesus." He lists six things that do not need to be laid again. The reason is given in the immediately preceding verses ... they should have grown past that. You don't lay it again becuase it has already been laid. You press on to bigger things.

    Rightly dividing the word of God has nothing to do with placing this in some different age. It has to do with proper understanding of it.
     
  3. Daniel David

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    Your hyper-dispensationalism is noted and will be further treated as untenable.

    There is one gospel for all people. The knowledge about the gospel progressed from an obscure view of the Christ to the complete picture we have today.

    Paul does not disagree with Christ on any point. Sorry about that.
     
  4. ituttut

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    Pastor Larry, you completely ignore the reference to II Corinthians 5:16-19. Have you ever used Paul’s gospel in your sermons. If so you must believe him. He says all things are New. But you say all things are Old.

    I Corinthians 3:11”For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” Are you saying you believe there is other foundations the Christian should be building on?

    You said we should “press on to bigger things” That’s exactly what I said, that Paul said. That was what I was writing about, and enforcing.

    A Hebrew wrote to the Hebrews. I say Paul (reference below), and you do not say whom you believe wrote the Book of Hebrews. How do you know you can trust whoever may have written the book, if you don’t know who wrote it?

    I believe the Word. The Word says: II Peter 3:14-18, ”Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
    15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    17. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
    18. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.



    There is only ONE GOSPEL? You are with the majority on this, but the masses have always got it wrong. Men follow men. The Christian is not to follow man. We are to follow Christ Jesus, and He is in heaven. He is no longer down here.

    If there are not two gospel’s, than there is not Christ……. We do not interpret His Word. The Holy Spirit wrote the Word, and He is the interpreter. It is up to us to correctly divide His Word. When the Bible agrees with itself, it has then been correctly understood.

    I’m looking for the rapture and not the kingdom. My evidence is here shown, and proved by the two gospel’s that became one. You have it just backwards.

    The Christian is in the kingdom as Christ is in the kingdom of God – Ephesians 5:5 reads ”For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God". This denotes a separation, and we are in Christ so we are in the kingdom if Christ.

    This should be sufficient to prove only we in the Body of Christ today have been separated out from all others since the beginning. Was Noah in this dispensation of God, or any before him, or before the crucifixion? Only those of the Pentecostal church, and the Christian church, are in the Body of Christ Church. The Pentecostal church was saved under the old economy of “repent and be baptized”, because salvation by grace had not yet come. This did not happen until after Damascus Road. But I do believe these are in the Body of Christ Church, if they accepted the gospel of Paul. I definitely believe Peter, and John are in this category, and would be willing to bet the other “earthly Apostles” of Jesus Christ also became Christian’s. Why? So they wouldn’t have to endure until the end. Peter says they can now be saved just like me, a Gentile. And that salvation is “believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved”. In Acts 2 Peter and the other Apostles preach a different message to the Jew and that was “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”. You never see Peter after Acts 15 preach such a message, and you never see John preach it.

    There were two different gospels of the kingdom at that time. The Christian of Believing, and the Pentecostal Jew, of law and works. Those of law and works must endure until the end, and will have to go through the tribulation if they are here, and make it through to enter into the kingdom. Not so we Christians. We will be with Christ in heaven, with rewards, awarded – hope everybody will get at least some – and will be in heaven when He comes back to this earth. Also, will we, both Gentile and Jew inherit the earth as those under the ordinances of the law?

    You have it just backwards. Those that wish to say salvation has always been the same evidently discard, and deliberately ignore such verses as Hebrews 8:10, ”For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:” They continue to say everybody has always been under a covenant of God. God only had a two-way covenant with one nation, and that is Israel. Here He makes a “new covenant” with them, and He will be a God to them, and as always, they are His people. This erroneous information of everybody is saved the same, and the gospel has never changed is plainly disputed by Paul in Romans 8:14. The Christians that are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. The only way that we are in Christ Jesus is through the Spirit. This is who brings us to repentance, and baptizes us into Jesus Christ’s death where we are dead to the law (sin). He will then resurrect us, and we are in Christ for eternity. Paul tells that we are to worship in the Spirit.

    Where are those in eternity? Where are those of old, and in prophecy, and before? They are in Hebrews 8:10 above, the people of God, and the Gentile will be subject to the Jew. As those before Abraham, were saved by faith (Hebrews 11), just as the Jew, it is evident that they are not as we as we are saved through faith, and are in Christ.

    So where are we? Did God have a secret or what! I Corinthians 15:22-28. ” For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.28.And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Through the Spirit we can see in verse 23 we are separated out in Christ. When it is all over, we will still be in Christ. God the Son does not just disappear and neither will we. He has plans for us. Could it be we replace the fallen angels? Aren’t angels “sons of God”? John says we will be as He. But we don’t know what we will be – I John 3:1-2.

    Isn’t it just amazing how the two earthly Apostles to the Jew in their Epistles sound just like Paul, the heavenly Apostle to the Gentile, and the Jew, after they understand they are in the Body of Christ? Amen, and Amen. The two gospels’s of Christ are brought together and made one. But not of the Old, but of the New. All things are New as the Old has passed away today (II Corinthians 5:17). I will stand with Christ Jesus, as He died for me, and I am His.
    Christian faith,
    ituttut

    Gal.1:12 "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    No, I did not ignore it. I use Paul all the time. I have preached through a number of his books.

    No, I am saying there is only one foundation: The gospel of Jesus Christ. There is not two gospels.

    But you said the foundation was Jesus. That is not what Hebrews 6:1-3 says. It says something else. The point is that those things were foundational teachings of the gospel that should not have to be retaught to believers. They should already know them.

    I can trust it because it is in the Scriptures, inspired by God. We do not know for sure who wrote a lot of the books. That does not change their truth. Hebrews does not identify an author. It is very much unlike Paul’s writings and therefore, most do not believe it is Paul. But in any case, it does not matter. Being absolutely sure of a wrong idea is not helpful.

    So do I, but what does 2 Peter 3 have to do with this?

    Yes.

    The masses do not believe in any gospel, much less one. The Bible teaches that there is one gospel. To believe in one gospel is to follow Jesus Christ. To believe in more than one gospel is to turn away from Christ.

    So am I.

    Your evidence didn’t have anything to do with the rapture. And you didn’t prove two gospels.

    There was never a different gospel for the Jew. In fact, the NT expressly says that all are sinners (both Jew and Gentiles) and all are saved the same way because there is no difference (Rom 10).

    No, Hebrews 8:10 is a reference to the new covenant with the nation of Israel in the end times. It is still the same gospel of faith.

    I sincerely hope you were not trying to apply this verse to yourself. Your post has many misunderstandings in it that were not given by the Holy Spirit, but rather by someone’s overactive imagination. IN someplaces, your post is simply disjointed and without any sound theology or reasoning. I would encourage you to abandon this idea you have and return to the teaching of Scripture.
     
  6. ituttut

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    That is your call, but I have proof, and you must not believe Paul was chosen for this dispensation, or that he points out other dispensations.

    You call untenable Ephesians 3:2, and other references? ”If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:” Can you show me who else in the Bible other than God talks with this authority on the dispensations?

    Those that do not know that God is a God of division, always like put a sarcastic label on the dispensational Christian. That is the way the word “Christian” came into being. That is what the people said of them – “there go those Christians”. They are of that heretic Paul. Thanks for the compliment.

    Amen to the one gospel for today. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. That is not the “great commission” of repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

    Amen again. You agree with Paul and Christ. Happy to see you believe also that salvation is by Grace through faith today. This is as you call it, hyper-dispensationalism. This information, salvation by grace alone through Jesus Christ,in the Holy Spirit, was never before known until Christ spoke face to face with Saul.

    Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:12
     
  7. ituttut

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  8. psr.2

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    If there is any question to the number of gospels in the scripture one only needs to look to the scripture.
    Do a word search on gospel. There are actually several. Also there are two kingdoms. The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven.
    The kingdom of heaven is the millenial reign of Christ on earth where the sermon on the mount will be the gospel.
    The other is the kingdom of God where we will spend eternity if we are born again.
     
  9. Daniel David

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    Actually, that is false. Go ahead and plug "millenial reign of Christ" into every instance of "kingdom of heaven". You will see that such a dichotomy is without warrant.

    There is but one gospel, that is, one way of salvation.

    I am a dispensationalist and tire of the clarence larkin trash.
     
  10. psr.2

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    Well if you consider the bible trash that is your poor opinion.
    Eph3:3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    Now if the gospel we know was not known to them they could not have believed it.

    Even the disciples when they heard the news of Jesus being risen from the dead and the tomb empty did not believe it. The bible says the news seemed as idle tales.
    Luke 24:9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
    10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
    11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
    12 Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

    Now if you say that the disciples were trusting the death burial and resurrection as the atonement for their sins you are not reading your bible.

    Let's say one of the disciples had died then believing the news of a risen Christ was an idle tale. Would they have gone to heaven? Would a person today who believes the bible is an idle tale go to heaven.

    Trash=mans tradition placed higher than scripture.
    Who then would be slinging trash Daniel?

    If you had done as I suggested and done a word search in your bible on gospel you would know the truth. But you didn't. Instead you chose to come out swinging without a trace of scripture to back up what you believe.

    Have you ever studied the kingdoms? Try it some time.
     
  11. psr.2

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    I knew that you would not look it up so I did it for you.
    Here is an example of a different gospel. This is th gospel of the trbulation time.
    Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    That is not the gospel of 1 Cor 15. So is Jesus cursed for preaching another gospel? Of course not. He is preaching the gospel of the last days. The entire passage is in response to the question of how do we know when the end of the world will be?

    Do a little more studying and a lot less debating and you will learn these things.
     
  12. Daniel David

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    Wow, I will apparently have to respond when I care enough to respond. Your hyper-dispensationalism is very similar to that of Ruckmans.

    I will say this: the basis of the gospel is what is contained in 1 Cor. 15.

    The gospel message is "repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ".

    Try to mix in a little theological understanding with your posts.

    Btw, I have done a thorough research on the use of "kingdom" in the N.T. There are many references to the millenial reign. However, "kingdom of heaven" isn't a synonym for it.
     
  13. psr.2

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    You'll have to do a little more research on "hyper" as well as gospel and kingdom. Ruckman is a self claimed moderate dispensationalist.
    Hypers are a bird of another color.
     
  14. psr.2

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    quote;
    The gospel message is "repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ".

    Yes that is the gospel for the church age but does not compare to the gospel Jesus preached in early Matt. "enduring to the end" is the gospel for the trib.

    By the way what do you think the gospel will be while Jesus is sitting on the throne in Jerusalem during the millenium?

    Couldn't be faith because all will see him. So what will it be?
     
  15. psr.2

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    quote;
    Try to mix in a little theological understanding with your posts.

    Try to mix a little scripture with yours.
     
  16. Daniel David

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    psr.2, the ability to interject scripture does not prove a position. One must be able to reasonably understand the Scriptures.

    Newsflash: those who repent and embrace Christ will endure to the end. Ooooo. That was tough.
     
  17. Daniel David

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    Funny thing about Romans 4. Paul argues that justification is by faith alone in the God who justifies. He then uses Abraham (pre-law), and David (during the law), as examples of men who were saved by faith alone.

    1. Stop ignoring Romans 4.
    2. Stop peddling your hyper-dispensationalism.
    3. Stop trying to shred biblical soteriology.
    4. Stop ignoring crucial parts of the Bible.
    5. Stop introducing your lies about the kingdom.
    6. Stop making me correct your posts.
    7. Stop arguing with the Apostle Paul about salvation.
     
  18. psr.2

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    Newsflash? Hardly! Just a shallow look at the scripture. Did you ever read the chapter that enduring is in?
    Did you notice the reference to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel?
    Do you know the time frame for that prophecy?
    Do you know that it is when the anti-Christ sits on the throne in Jerusalem?
    Do you know that Christians will already be gone to heaven due to something we call the rapture?
    Do you know that doctrinally the entire passage is to those going through the tribulation?
    Do you know that a child of God is not enduring but that we are more than conquerers?
    Do you know that we have already overcome?

    I didn't think that asking for scripture would offend a child of God. In fact I love the scripture and love to be able to use it to help others.

    Funny you should bring up Abraham. Do you know when God imputed righteousness to Abraham?
    No.
    Was it when he prayed and asked Jesus to forgive his sins and save him?
    No.
    God imputed righteousness to Abraham when he believed the promise from God that he would give him seed that would out number the stars of heaven. Look up the references in Hebrews and Genesis if it will not offend you.

    Funny you should mention David. Did you know that David broke two of the commandments for which there were no sacrifices for but that the person guilty of them was to be killed?
    So why didn't God have him killed?
    Is God a respector of persons?
    If David was trusting in the blood atonement of Christ why was he doing the sacrifices,abstaining from pork and keeping the sabbath?
    I'll tell you why. He was under a different covenant. If you would care to check out the entire scripture instead of clinging to your favorite few you could learn that.
     
  19. Daniel David

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    Wow, bizarre has new meaning for me. I have a new synonym for it now. Thanks.

    First with Abraham, let me put what I posted again to help you:

    Paul argues that justification is by faith alone in the God who justifies.

    It wasn't faith in the promise. It was faith in the God who promised it. Get it? It was faith in God.

    The same is true for David. David believed in the God who justifies.

    David was required to obey the law which was given to the entire nation. That included sacrifices, etc. People were still saved by faith in the God who justifies.

    Again, Abraham who was pre-law, David who was under the law (incidentally, the disciples were also under the law until Christ's death on the cross and they were saved the same way), and then there is us who are alive post-law and we are saved the exact same way that Abraham and David and the disciples were saved.

    Further, you can't assume that every reference to "saved" is a reference to the soteriological doctrine of salvation. Christ's use of "those who endure to the end will be 'saved'" is talking about their PHYSICAL life. They will be physically saved because they will have endure to the end of the tribulation and Christ will deliver (at the end of the trib) all believers from death.

    Again, posting Scripture isn't the problem here. I could post many. That isn't the point. If you don't understand what they are saying, it does you no good.
     
  20. psr.2

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    This time you got me Daniel. You sure are good!
    NOT!!
    If you think that every O.T. saint was looking forward to the cross while every N.T. saint is looking back to the cross you are seriously mistaken.
    As I said O.T. were kept by law until finished work of Calvary. That was the gospel of their time. Hence you have another gospel.
    I think I'll wait for someone who actually refers to scripture to prove a point.
    I sense your hostility is from a lack of bible knowledge. The frustration of not knowing where to look for the verses you want is displayed by the hostile nature of your post. Good day.
     

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