Hebrews 10:23

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Pastor KevinR, Mar 2, 2004.

  1. Pastor KevinR

    Pastor KevinR
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    The KJV has, "faith" here, while most other BV's have "hope." The 1917 edition of the Scofield Bible (KJV) has in it's middle coulumn that it is "hope"...I don't know if the real 1611 has this word for an alt reading (Ed, this is where you come in), since it's likely an "oversight" Anyhow, the T.R., Majority Text, and all Greek MSS have the Greek word for "hope", while the KJV has "faith". Scrivener thought this might be a mere oversight of the translators. The word in the Greek is "elpis" which is always trans "hope" every other time it is found in the T.R. (53 times). The word usually trans "faith" does not appear here, but in the next chapter (pistis). My question for you all, esp the KJVO's is the KJV wrong here, even though this word is never trans as "faith", except in this one instance in the KJV? Did the Tyndale, Geneva, NKJV, etc have it wrong here for trans this word, elpis as "hope"? Considering the meaning of this Greek word and the way the KJV translators consistently rendered it 53 times, can KJVO's honestly condemn MV's for rendering it as "hope"?
    BTW, the "faith, hope, and love"(Hebrews 10:22-24)parallel with 1 Cor 13:13 is missing in the KJV, but is still there in the MV's. (the word, faith in verse 22 is not the same Greek word trans faith in verse 23 in the KJV)see where the Greek can correct the English? ;)
    KJVO's and MV proponents, I appreciate your thoughts. (Thanks to Rick Norris for most of the above).
     
  2. Ed Edwards

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    Hebrewes X:23 (KJV1611):

    Let vs hold fast the profession of
    our faith, without wauering (for he is
    faithfull that promised)


    no sidenote
     
  3. tinytim

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    The KJB 1873 got it right.
     
  4. rsr

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    Hebrews 10:23, New English Translation:

    "And let us hold unwaveringly to the hope that we confess, for the one who made the promise is trustworthy."

    No translators' note, not among the 60,000-plus. (I got my NET today and it is a pure joy.)
     
  5. Precepts

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    The key AGAIN is context. If you follow th flow of the context in the passage you find that "faith" is the theme and leading up to Hebrews 11/ The Faith Chapter.

    Another key is the Doctrine of Faith. I don't hold to a profession of "hope", but I do hold to my profession of my faith in Christ Jesus. The thingas I know about God are by faith, not hope.

    I have a "know-so" salvation, not a "hope-so".

    The thought is what is implied here, the Greek obviously limits the word for a word translation and confuses the passage doctrinally.

    In the sense that "hope" is "faith", and it is, "faith" is not wrong at all. In fact it's faith that pleases God.
     
  6. robycop3

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    Precepts:The thought is what is implied here, the Greek obviously limits the word for a word translation and confuses the passage doctrinally.

    If this were a modern version reading, the KJVOs would've attacked it with all their might, but here is Precepts DEFENDING it. This is more absolute, empirical proof of the great KJVO double standard.
     
  7. Will J. Kinney

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    The Profession of Our Faith - Hebrews 10:23

    Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our FAITH without wavering

    In support of the KJB reading of elpis as being translated as FAITH, the following should be considered.

    Liddell and Scott's Lexicon list one of the meanings of elpis as "Reason to expect or Believe" page 537. The same is true of Kittle's massive work who shows that elpis shades over into being synonymous with Faith. "Hope as expectation of good is closely linked with trust. This hope is thus trust." "It consists rather in general confidence in God's protection and help." page 522.

    The verb form of this noun is elpizo and even the NASB and NIV have at times translated this word as to Trust. The KJB translates this verb as to Trust 18 times as well as to hope. If you trust something or someone, you believe them. It is really "gnat straining" to suggest that we are talking about the noun here and not the verb, when the very verb from which this noun comes is also translated as "to trust" in all the modern Bibles as well.

    The King James Bible is not the only one to translate this word as FAITH in Hebrews 10:23. In 1755 John Wesley made his own New Testament translation, and he changed thousands of words from the King James readings, but in Hebrews 10:23 Mr. Wesley went with "the profession of our faith". The Spanish Reina Valera of 1602, nine years before the KJB, also translated this passage in the same way as the KJB. "la professiĆ³n de nuestra FE (faith). So does the more recent Spanish Valera Neuvo Testamento of 1858.

    Though Adam Clarke does not agree with the KJB reading, he notes in his commentary on this passage that the Old Latin (Itala), Erpen's Arabic and the ancient Ethiopic versions also read "the profession of our Faith".

    Other English versions that have translated this word as Faith in Hebrews 10:23 are Noah Webster's 1833 translation. Noah Webster knew some 15 different languages including Hebrew and Greek and he made his own translation of the Bible in 1833. He changed the wording of the KJB in many places, but he left the word Faith here in Hebrews 10:23.

    In addition to this, we also have the more modern translations of the KJV 21st Century and the Third Millenium Bible and both of these also have elpis as Faith in Hebrews 10:23.

    Several Bible commentators agree with the reading as found in the KJB. Matthew Henry, who often made textual corrections to the KJB, when commenting on this passage made no attempt to "correct" the KJB but rather said this verse means: "the duty itself - to hold fast the profession of our faith, to embrace all the truths and ways of the gospel, to get fast hold on them, and to keep that hold against all temptation and opposition."

    Jamison, Faucett and Brown, who likewise often correct the KJB, say the word is elpis or hope but remark "our hope, which is indeed Faith exercised as to the future inheritance."

    Another who frequently corrected the KJB was John Gill. In his commentary on Hebrews 10:23 he makes no comment correcting the reading of the KJB's "the profession of our Faith" but rather defines faith here as being "faith - either in the grace or doctrine of faith, or in the profession of both."

    I think it is a bit hypocritical of those who criticize the KJB for rendering this word as Faith here in Hebrews 10, yet all other times as Hope. The new versions likewise do many similar things in their translations. For example, the word Faith itself. The Greek word for faith is pistis and by far most of the time the NASB and NIV translate this word as Faith. Yet both translate this same word as Pledge only one time (I Timothy 5:12) and only one time as Proof (Acts 17:31). Wouldn't they also be wrong then for departing from the usual sense of the word and translating it this way?

    We can easily see that Proof, and Pledge and Faith are not at all the same things in English, yet words have different shades of meaning depending upon the context.

    In Summary, we see that the evidence for the KJB being correct, or at the very least, not in error for translating elpis as Faith in Hebrews 10:23 are # 1 - the Lexicons of Liddell and Scott, and that of Kittle; # 2 - other translations both foreign and in English of the Spanish Reina Valera of 1602, and 1858, Wesley's and Webster's translations, the KJV 21 and the Third Millenium Bible, and # 3 many commentaries which make no attempt to change the reading of the KJB but rather expound it accurately just as it stands with the reading: "the profession of our Faith".

    The context as well shows that Faith is the better choice here than Hope. The context is the once for all sacrifice of our Lord, the remission of our sins and no more offering to be made for sins.

    In holding fast the profession (what we speak and affirm) of our faith, is it more accurate to say "I hope I am forgiven", or "I believe (have faith) that I am forgiven"? I believe God guided the KJB translators in giving the proper sense of this word "elpis" as being contextually equivalent to "faith, or what we trust in and confess before others.

    Will Kinney
     
  8. Precepts

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    There is no double standard Cransilly, I simply considered what you said, looked it up, and saw where the word "hope" didn't fit the context. You're forcing the Greek again into the English. If one cannot take into consideration your insinuations and try to help you with your dilemma, then you are become one who self inflicts his own misery in not knowing the Preserved Word of God. Maybe it's time for you to come in out of the rain, Cransillyton?
     
  9. Precepts

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    Whoops! (I wonder what the Greek word for "whoops" is?)
     
  10. Precepts

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    With no sidenote I know that sent Ed, reeling.
     
  11. Orvie

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    Precepts wrote- "I have a "know-so" salvation, not a "hope-so"."
    Orvie replies-"This doesn't apply here. Our Blessed Hope spoken of in Titus, is it a "hope-so" return, or "know-so" reurn? The word, "hope" doesn't mean something to be doubted, as Titus makes clear (2:13)"
    P-"The thought is what is implied here, the Greek obviously limits the word for a word translation and confuses the passage doctrinally."
    O-"It's sad that you choose to limit the inspired language God chose and exalt the KJV;kjb....at least Will K adressed the word as one who studied this word, instead of forcing the effect over the cause." :rolleyes:
     
  12. Orvie

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    There is no double standard Cransilly, I simply considered what you said, looked it up, and saw where the word "hope" didn't fit the context. You're forcing the Greek again into the English. If one cannot take into consideration your insinuations and try to help you with your dilemma, then you are become one who self inflicts his own misery in not knowing the Preserved Word of God. Maybe it's time for you to come in out of the rain, Cransillyton? </font>[/QUOTE]Precepts, you said, quite idiotic I might add, "You're forcing the Greek again into the English." It's sad that you've chosen to pickle the English over God's inspired Word. He chose Greek to write His N.T., and you are violating Rev 22;18-19 (again). Look out for lightening bolts! :eek: :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:
     
  13. HankD

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    1 Corinthians 13:13
    And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    hope is not faith.
    elpis is not pistis.

    IMO either the KJV translators made a poor choice in Hebrews 10:23 or Dr. Ruckman is correct that the English is better than the Greek. My personal choice is the former.

    The current English word hope is not a fully corresponding word in nuance for elpis perhaps it was closer in 1611, but if so why did they choose the word faith for elpis in Hebrews 10:23 and not Hebrews 6:11 (for instance).

    A better candidate for switching these words by the KJV translators would have been Romans 8:24:

    For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

    The koine word elpis is almost always (as far as I have observed) used of an assured expectation of a/the promise of God without an element of doubt concerning His ability to perform (e.g. the Second Coming, the Resurrection, etc). The only thing not know precisely is WHEN He will perform not WHETHER and we should look forward to the fulfilment as a "done deal".

    Hebrews 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

    Here in the following Galatians passage a clear distinction in the differences of these words is shown.

    Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    I await the usual ad hominems from the totally predictable.

    HankD
     
  14. RaptureReady

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    I agree with Precepts and the KJB, faith is the better word.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    It is too bad you weren't the author ... then you could have said that. As it stands now, the author God actually inspired to write this said "hope." I think God is the one who knows what the better word is. I am not sure why you think you know better than God ...
     
  16. Precepts

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    Since "koine" means the language then spoken, who is it of you Greek "enthusiasts" can actually know "elpis" is "never" rendered as "faith"?

    I believe all you're doing is stabbing in the air on this one.

    Hank... presupposing.


    Orvie: I showed the simple approach to the question, Brother Will gave the full description and even met your approval for his indepth study, but doesn't it just flabbergast you that we both, Brother Will and I, came to the exact same conclusion?!?

    Larry, we don't agree that "faith" is the better definition of "elpis" simply because of our allegiance with the Author, but simply the word "faith" fits the context. Forcing the word "hope" doesn't fit the context.

    In many regards "faith" = hope, but in the verse Orvie gave that "hope" is not a "false" hope, an expectation in the midst of uncertainty, but the CONFIDENCE our FAITH provides!
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    "Hope" isn't forced; "hope" is the word the author used and it is the word that a faithful translation should have. You guys are fond of blasting dynamic equivalence in the NIV, but you defend it in the KJV. You are inconsistent.

    Your allegiance to the author should cause you to call for a correction to this mistake. The word "elpis" means hope, and it is used many times in Hebrews. It should be preserved rather than exchanged for faith. The author of Hebrews had a big enough vocabulary that if he had wanted to say "faith," he would have.
     
  18. Precepts

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    Why is it you are looking for this "mistake" in the passage? You are controlled by your bias in this situation and have completely thrown common sense to the four winds, Larry, like you've never done that before!

    Many have decided the word in this passage is BEST described as faith, in turn you are forcing the Greek to specifics with no actual proof other than a common belief by those who fight against the KJB.

    You are demanding a correction by something that is proven to be somewhat vague in a complete understanding in exact meaning/ Koine Greek. You say I don't understand the Greek, but you don't seem to understand the fact that I know that no one has a full understanding of the exact meanings of Koine Greek alive today. Yall are swimming in the pool of specualtion, we are simply equating the context as in perfect harmony. That will show your ideal as a contradiction to harmony, schizmatic may be a good word here.

    It's w/h misuse of dynamic equivelence we object to and you know it.
     
  19. Pastor Larry

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    I am not looking for a mistake and I have no bias. Get out your concordance and look it up. You will find that the word in question is always translated "hope" in the KJV, except for this spot. I am not forcing the Greek to anything. The Greek has a word for faith and a word for hope. In this passage, the word for hope is used. That is how it should be translated. Look at the example by your revered KJV translators. Every single time this word is used, they translate it as "hope" except for this one. This is inexplicable, as is your defense of it. Virtually the only people who have decided that "faith" is best in this passage are those who are KJVO. Very few others do. They have the freedom to say what God said, which is "hope." It is you who is contradicting what God said by exchanging his word for another.

    Why not simply use the word that God used? Why change it to fit your own position?

    Your statement It's w/h misuse of dynamic equivelence we object to and you know it shows just how bad this conversation is. Westcott and Hort did not use dynamic equivalence. They were editors of a Greek text. You are so uninformed on this that you do not even make simple distinctions about who did what.
     
  20. Orvie

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    I never said I agreed w/ Will, but I appreciate it that he researched the matter instead of assuming that b/c it's in the English of the KJV;kjb, it has to be right. Ya gotta come back to reality and realize the Anglican Translators are not prophets, but interpreters, and they blew it here. :eek:
     

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