Hebrews 3:16

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Amy.G, Oct 29, 2008.

  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G
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    KJV
    For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.


    NKJV
    For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, [was it] not all who came out of Egypt, [led] by Moses?



    According to the "King James Bible Commentary", the NKJV is correct in it's translation. :confused:
    You would think it would agree with the KJV.


    It seems that the KJV would be the correct rendering of this verse because God has always had His remnants.

    How is a lowly Bible student such as myself to know which is right???
     
    #1 Amy.G, Oct 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2008
  2. Rippon

    Rippon
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    Eight More!

    TNIV : Who were they who heard and rebelled?
    Were they not all those who Moses led out of Egypt?

    NIrV : Who were those who heard and refused to obey?
    Weren't they all the people Moses led out of Egypt?

    NLTse : And who was it who rebelled against God,
    even though they heard his voice?Wasn't it the people
    Moses led out of Egypt?

    HCSB : For who heard and rebelled? Wasn't it really
    all who came out of Egypt under Moses?

    Norlie's Simplified N.T. :Who was it who heard His voice
    and yet rebelled?Were they not all those who had been
    led out of Egypt by Moses?

    REB : who was it that heard and yet rebelled?All those,
    surely,whom Moses had led out of Egypt.

    NJB : who was it who listened and then rebelled?Surely
    all those whom Moses led out of Egypt.

    NRSV : Now who were they who heard and yet were rebellious?
    Was it not all who left Egypt under the leadership of Moses?
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Try the James method:

    Jas 1:4-6 Jas 3:17-18 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    And let patience haue her perfect worke, that ye may be perfect and entier, lacking nothing.
    5 If any of you lacke wisedome, let him aske of God, which giueth to all men liberally, and reprocheth no man, and it shalbe giuen him.
    Jas 1:6 But let him aske in faith, and wauer not: for hee that wauereth, is like a waue of the sea, tost of the winde, and caried away.


    Jas 3:17-18 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    But the wisedome that is from aboue, is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easie to be intreated, full of mercie and good fruites, without iudging, and without hipocrisie.
    18 And the fruite of righteousnesse is sowen in peace, of them that make peace.

    Or try the Proverbs method (see also my signature block)

    Pro 15:22 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    Without cousel thoughts come to nought: but in the multitude of counsellers there is stedfastnesse.

    Pro 24:6 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    For with counsel thou shalt enterprise thy warre, and in the multitude of them that can giue counsell, is health.

    Several Version witnesses can make the matter easier. I recommend & use a 4 version Parallel Bible. (I also have an on-line parallel Bible which is why I keep quoting the Geneva Bible of 1599).

    I try to figure out how these that seem to be different readings (not which is right, which is wrong - a false dichotomy) have both been preserved. Are they both different ways of saying the same truth? Are they two truths which have both been preserved by God?
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Here I think the verse after and the verse before need to be read together.


    My trailer used to say (like back in 2004):

    All English Language Bibles
    Collectively and Individually
    contain and are
    the Inerrant and Perfect
    Written Word of God
    preserved by Divine Appointment
    for the generation in which they are translated.

    Most but NOT ALL English Language Bibles fit this description (there are more that do than that don't). I changed the proposition to include the world VALID (thus eliminating the "Fisherman's Bible", the "Reader's Digest Bible" and a few others.

    In this scripture, it clearly says in the Hebrew 'not all'. Not all who followed Moses out rebelled - but most did. The 'all' refers to those who followed Moses out of Egypt. The ones in rebellion were most, not all. The difference in the versions does not seem to be among the original language sources, but in the way it has to be explained in English.
     
  5. franklinmonroe

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    Now there's a version you don't see quoted every day. (But I like it!)
     
  6. franklinmonroe

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    Matthew Henry states --
    ... The apostle tells them that though some who had heard the voice of God did provoke him, yet all did not so. Observe, (1.) Though the majority of hearers provoked God by unbelief, yet some there were who believed the report. (2.) Though the hearing of the word be the ordinary means of salvation, yet, if it be not hearkened to, it will expose men more to the anger of God. (3.) God will have a remnant that shall be obedient to his voice, and he will take care of such and make mention of them with honour. (4.) If these should fall in a common calamity, yet they shall partake of eternal salvation, while disobedient hearers perish for ever. ​
     
  7. Salamander

    Salamander
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    Um, not everyone led out of Egypt provoked the Lord to allow them to wander for the forty years it took to kill off the rebels.

    Reading this passage from the ones other than the KJB suggests that even Moses, Caleb and Joshua provoked the Lord, yet the Bible teaches differently.:godisgood:

    I agreed with Matthew Henry BEFORE I read what he said about the matter!:sleeping_2:
     
  8. Deacon

    Deacon
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    Study it out yourself!
    Do your own word study!

    I've been helping to teach a class at my church over the last month.

    Here are the steps.
    Most of it can be done with on-line tools.

    Word study method

    1. Choose the word.
    2. Find it’s English definition
    3. Compare translations
    4. Find original language word
    5. Find the root meaning and origin of the word
    6. Compare word usages in the Bible
    7. Apply the lesson in your life.

    Step 1. Word: Provoke (KJV)

    Step 2. Find it’s English definition

    pro•voke (pr -v k )
    tr.v. pro•voked, pro•vok•ing, pro•vokes
    1. To incite to anger or resentment.
    2. To stir to action or feeling.
    3. To give rise to; evoke: provoke laughter.
    4. To bring about deliberately; induce: provoke a fight.

    [Middle English - provoken, from Old French provoquer, from Latin pr voc re, to challenge : pr -, forth; see pro-1 + voc re, to call; see wekw- in Indo-European roots.]
    Synonyms: provoke, incite, excite, stimulate, arouse, rouse, stir1
    These verbs mean to move a person to action or feeling or to summon something into being by so moving a person. Provoke often merely states the consequences produced: "Let my presumption not provoke thy wrath" Shakespeare. "A situation which in the country would have provoked meetings" John Galsworthy.
    To incite is to provoke and urge on: Members of the opposition incited the insurrection.
    Excite implies a strong or emotional reaction: The movie will fail; the plot excites little interest or curiosity.
    Stimulate suggests renewed vigor of action as if by spurring or goading: "Our vigilance was stimulated by our finding traces of a large ... encampment" Francis Parkman.
    To arouse means to awaken, as from inactivity or apathy; rouse means the same, but more strongly implies vigorous or emotional excitement: "In a democratic society like ours, relief must come through an aroused popular conscience that sears the conscience of the people's representatives" Felix Frankfurter. "The oceangoing steamers ... roused in him wild and painful longings" Arnold Bennett.
    To stir is to cause activity, strong but usually agreeable feelings, trouble, or commotion: "It was him as stirred up th' young woman to preach last night" George Eliot. "I have seldom been so ... stirred by any piece of writing" Mark Twain. See Also Synonyms at annoy.

    From the The Free Dictionary [LINK]

    Step 3. Compare translations

    For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
    Hebrews 3:16 AV 1873

    For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses?
    Hebrews 3:16 ASV

    For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
    Hebrews 3:16 NKJV

    For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
    Hebrews 3:16 NASB95

    And who was it who rebelled against God, even though they heard his voice? Wasn’t it the people Moses led out of Egypt?
    Hebrews 3:16 NLT

    Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?
    Hebrews 3:16 TNIV

    Now who were they who heard and yet were rebellious? Was it not all those who left Egypt under the leadership of Moses?
    Hebrews 3:16 NRSV

    Step 4. Definition of original word:
    Look in a Strong’s Concordance

    The NET Bible site is a nice site with free access to it.
    Hebrews 3:16 NeXt Bible [LINK]

    Strong’s number 3893 [LINK]


    parapikraino <3893>
    parapikrainw parapikraino
    Pronunciation: par-ap-ik-rah'-ee-no
    Origin:from Strongs #’s 3844 and 4087
    Reference: Theological Dictionary of the NT - 6:125,839
    In NET: rebelled 1
    In AV: provoke 1

    Definition:
    1) to provoke, exasperate
    2) to rouse to indignation
    from 3844 and 4087; to embitter alongside, i.e. (figuratively) to exasperate: provoke.
    see GREEK for 3844
    see GREEK for 4087

    Step 5. Find the root meaning and origin of the word

    para <3844>
    http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3844
    para para
    Definition:1) from, of at, by, besides, near
    a primary preposition; properly, near; i.e. (with genitive case) from
    beside (literally or figuratively), (with dative case) at (or in) the
    vicinity of (objectively or subjectively), (with accusative case) to
    the proximity with (local (especially beyond or opposed to) or causal
    (on account of):-above, against, among, at, before, by, contrary to,
    X friend, from, + give (such things as they), + that (she) had,
    X his, in, more than, nigh unto, (out) of, past, save,
    side...by, in the sight of, than, (there-)fore, with. In compounds it
    retains the same variety of application.

    pikraino <4087> Origin: from 4089
    pikrainw pikraino
    http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=4087
    Definition: 1) to make bitter
    1a) to produce a bitter taste in the stomach
    2) to embitter. exasperate
    2a) render angry, indignant
    2b) to be embittered, irritated
    2c) to visit with bitterness, to grieve (deal bitterly with)

    Origin from 4089
    pikros <4089>
    pikrov pikros
    Definition: 1) bitter
    2) metaph. harsh, virulent
    perhaps from 4078 (through the idea of piercing); sharp (pungent),
    i.e. acrid (literally or figuratively):-bitter.


    Step 6. Compare word usages in the Bible

    Need an Englishman’s Concordance
    A similar word used in verses 8 and 15 (Strong’s #3894)

    Step 7. Make your own conclusion!

    Rob
     
    #8 Deacon, Oct 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2008

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