Hebrews 4:12

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Surfer Joe, Dec 11, 2007.

  1. Surfer Joe

    Surfer Joe
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was taught and always believed that the Word of God in Hebrews 4:12 referred to Scripture. Looking at it closely though, the context seems to say that it is referring to Jesus Himself. The whole chapter is talking about Jesus, so 4:12 must be as well right?

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Surfer Joe

    Surfer Joe
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Twelve views already. I guess there are no thoughts?
     
  3. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since the Bible declares Jesus to be the Word, I have no problem with Hebrews 4:12 referring to Jesus
     
  4. Surfer Joe

    Surfer Joe
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Right on. I just wanted to bring this up because it became clear to me the other day and was thus contrary to what I had learned and always believed.
     
  5. readmore

    readmore
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2007
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good point, Joe--I can remember this being taught in our church, often while the pastor was waving a Bible over his head for emphasis.

    I took a look at the passage in a few different versions. The NIV translators clearly understood this to be talking about the Bible. If you read it from the KJV or NASB, the meaning is a little more ambiguous. But if you take verse 13 into account, it could support your point. "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight"--manifest in who's sight? Answer: the Word of God, as stated in verse 12.

    Greek scholars here on BB: any further insight?
     
  6. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,685
    Likes Received:
    242
    It means the Scriptures. Specifically, the Law.
     
  7. readmore

    readmore
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2007
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll admit, that does seem like a possibility. Why should we go with that?
     
  8. Watchman

    Watchman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2003
    Messages:
    2,706
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hebrews 4:12: For the word of God is quicke and powerfull, and sharper then any two edged sword, pearcing euen to the diuiding asunder of soule and spirit, and of the ioynts and marrowe, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (KJV 1611.)
    I would grant you that the Lord Jesus is referred to as the Word in scripture. But the way the verse is worded there: "sharper then any two edged sword." We have, of course, Seen this two edged sword before (Rev. chapter 1), it is was not Jesus Himself, but what came out of His mouth. So, I feel that the two edged sword is God’s spoken (and from our advantage point written) word.
     
  9. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,168
    Likes Received:
    322
    12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
    14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
    15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
    16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.​

    The word is Logos, the same as in the John 1:1 passage.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

    If the Logos of Hebrews 4:12 is not Jesus then it is being personified as God Himself in verse 13 and as our high priest in verses 14-16.​

    There is at least a very close connection as you have said concerning the sword coming out of His mouth.​

    HankD​
     
  10. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. The Word in Hebrews 4:12 is referring to the Scripture---which is alive and active--this is never used of Jesus.

    2. Besides, v. 13 tells us exactly that it is the Scripture which is under consideration and not Jesus.

    3. Up to verse 12, the writer has been quoting from the OT to substantiate his arguments.

    4. The Word is called the Sword of the Spirit in Eph 6:17.
     
  11. Rubato 1

    Rubato 1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    0
    One and the same, my freind.
     
  12. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    I think it's talking about Christ, who works in harmony with the written word. The word here is logos, and I think if we let it have the same meaning as John 1 gives it, it's a good fit. Jesus is the word of God personified (hypostaticly).
     
  13. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    What prevents us from saying "Jesus" wherever we see logos?
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Knowing when it doesn't mean Jesus.
     
  15. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    And you are certain that it means Jesus in Heb 4:12?
     
  16. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe it is speaking of Jesus Himself, yes
     
  17. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you know of any commentator or so, who shares your view? This seems to be the minority position.
     
  18. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    The context. It seems very close to the Johannine Logos as it is used in this passage to me. And I think that it's reasonable to assume that John was not the only one to use logos in that manner. But we all know what happens when we "assume" things, don't we?[​IMG]
     
  19. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is quite evident from John 1 that the logos was Jesus (vv. 1-5, 14). But what are the similarities in Heb 4 to link it to John?
     
  20. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    Gill:

    "Ver. 12. For the word of God is quick and powerful[SIZE=+1],.... This is to be understood of Christ, the essential Word of God; for the Word of God was a known name of the Messiah among the Jews; See Gill on "Joh 1:1"[SIZE=+1] and therefore the apostle makes use of it when writing to them: and the words are introduced as a reason why care should be taken, that men fall not off from the Gospel, because Christ, the author, sum, and substance of it, is the living God, omnipotent and omniscient; for not a thing, but a person is spoken of, who is a Judge, and a critical discerner of the secrets of men's hearts: and certain it is, that this Word is spoken of as a person, and is said to be a priest in the following verses; to which may be added, that the several things said of the Word exactly agree with Christ: he is "the Word of God"; "[/SIZE][/SIZE]
     

Share This Page

Loading...