Hebrews 6:1-8

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by zrs6v4, Jun 12, 2009.

  1. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2007
    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    2
    Today I had a discussion with a friend about eternal security (which I dont want to take this thread there) and we discussed these verses. I could write a book on what I believe on Eternal Security, but I want to focus on why God decided to say these words. I believe OSAS but what do you think and why-

    1. is this intended to fear believers to repentance and is that faith (warning)?

    2. is this actually saying we can fall from grace?

    3. is this depicting true men of faith from false faith?

    4. or is this simply talking of rewards?


    my personal opinion in the simplest form is that this is not only a warning to believers, but also is ultimatley speaking of unbelievers.
     
  2. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think it written to believers and only to believers. They were facing persecution and tempted to hide their faith.

    I do not think this says people can lose their salvation, but they can lose rewards (this is the view of my NT prof).

    I don't think this is about unbelievers because he clearly calls them Christians in several places in Hebrews. For example, 3.1:

    And 12.7
    The whole message is to believers.
     
  3. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,935
    Likes Received:
    45
  4. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2007
    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    2
    v4-6: seem to talk about fruitless people who keep on living against Christ (not in faith but rather keep sinning). no fruit = no repentance = false faith.

    v7-8: good fruit = a blessing/true faith and bad fruit= false faith and in the end hell

    v1-4: simple gospel teachings in including dead works and of faith.

    my question to the writer of Hebrews is this- What does he mean by those once enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, and shared in Spirit, and the goodness of the Word? is it actually those born again or those who were around fellowship groups and have not been converted?

    At this point, although I may be heading in the wrong direction, I dont see how the bible teaches of unfruitful believers...
     
  5. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,935
    Likes Received:
    45
    "my question to the writer of Hebrews is this-" Are you hoping to ask Him in Heaven someday? Did you see J.Vernon's answers I gave you?
     
    #5 Jedi Knight, Jun 12, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2009
  6. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2007
    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    2

    Yes God breathed out all scripture through all the writers. So if the author was Paul, it was ultimatly God. Why do you ask?

    Yes I listedened to J Vernons answer, thanks for the link, although Im not seeing how it is talking about losing only rewards at this point. Scripture seems to be clear that without bearing the fruit of repentance continually that our faith will be proved false. I dont believe a true convert by the grace of God can lose his salvation as it is authored and finished by God. A true convert will produce some degree of fruit as mentioned in the fourth seed of the parable of the sower.
     
  7. Goldie

    Goldie
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    Post deleted due to duplication
     
    #7 Goldie, Jun 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2009
  8. Goldie

    Goldie
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    The answer to this question will be as clear as daylight if you rightly divide the scriptures. This is just one of many contradictions in the Bible due to incorrect division.

    One needs to discern between "times past", "but now" and "times to come". This is the reason why Paul's epistles inevitably contradict the Epistles written to the Hebrews or Little Flock, which consist of the 4 synopic gospel, (times past) as well as the epistles from Hebrews to Revelation (times to come). So the 4 synoptic Gospels and the epistles from Hebrews to Revelation don't contradict one another in any way.

    There is a clear distinction and difference not only between all of Paul's Epistles and the Hebrew Epistles (Hebrews - Revelation), but also between his epistles and the 4 synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. If you don't believe me, do a honest comparison between what Paul preached and what Peter, John and the other disciples preached.

    It's clear that during the times of the synoptic Gospels, no gentile could be saved/healed unless he became a Jewish proselyte or blessed Israel in some way, and doesn't Jesus Himself state in the synoptic gospels that He only came for the House of Israel? Did He also command His disciples not to go anywhere else but only to Judea and Samaria? Did He also not state that the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand? But Israel proceeded to reject Him as their Messiah and they blasphemed the Holy Ghost (when they stoned Stephen), so that is why in Acts 28:28 we see that Israel is set aside according to Hosea 6 - they are currently Lo-Ammi (not my people). The 4 synoptic gospels belong to the Old Testament, with John the Baptist being the last Old Testament Prophet.

    We are currently living in the Times of the Gentiles, what the Apostle Paul calls "but now", the 2000 year period, or the 2 day period stated in Hosea 6. Paul's Gospel which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, makes no distinction between Gentile and Jew because the middle wall partition has been broken down - today anyone is free to come to know God's grace, as God isn't imputing sin to us in this time that Paul refers to the Dispensation of God's Grace. God is showing his unmerited love and mercy to us. Soiif this is the case then why is most of Christian telling us we have to "repent of our sins", after all, weren't all of mankind's sins nailed to the Cross 2000 years ago? The problem with the world today isn't sin, but unbelief and it can clearly be seen in the faith + works gospel the church is preaching today. If you think you can bring anything towards the salvation transaction and so save yourself, you simply aren't trusting that the Lord Jesus Christ died for ALL your sins 2000 years ago, you aren't believing that He did IT ALL.

    Didn't the Apostle Paul say that he was the Apostle to the Gentiles? Did he not say he preached the Gospel of the Uncircumcision, whereas Peter stated that He preached the Gospel to the Circumcision? So seeing as Israel was set aside in Acts 28:28, where does that leave us concerning Prophecy? It ties in with Daniel's 70 weeks. The prophetic clock was stopped at 69 weeks and we are living in the period between the 69th and 70th week, and since there is no nation of Israel, there are no signs and wonders or prophecy in effect today. These will again commence once the Body of Christ is raptured and the 70th week or Time of Jacob's Trouble commences and God once again deals with the Little Flock - and they will find their Biblical doctrine from Hebrew to Revelation. But can we as the Body of Christ learn from the Little Flock's epistles? Yes we can, they're known as lateral truths, whereas the Pauline epistles are our vertical truths for today. They also give us an outline of God's plan.

    Right Division is preaching the RISEN Lord Jesus Christ according the Revelation of the Mystery given to the Apostle Paul. How the Kingdom of Heaven gospel differs from Paul's Grace gospel is this fact:

    The synoptic gospels did not and could preach the death, burial AND RESURRECTION of the Lord Jesus Christ because Christ hadn't been crucified yet. That's why they were told to REPENT of their sin (blaspheming the Holy Ghost) in order to be saved - did the Gentiles reject the Messiah at that time? No - unless they were Jewish proselytes, they were totally clueless as to what was going on - after all they were just dogs. So why does most of the Church pick up on this today and use it as their Gospel message? We aren't Jews for goodness sake, we haven't been and never will be.

    The Book of Acts is a transient book and things are constantly changing in it - there's a lot of turmoil in it. The Lord God gave Israel several chances to repent after He opened Paul's eyes to the truth and this can clearly be seen in the Pauline Epistles written before Acts 28. One will notice that the Pauline Epistles written after this which are namely Ephesians, Colossians and Philippians - that things are drastically different as Israel has been set aside until the Time of Jacob's Trouble or Tribulation after the Body of Christ is raptured.

    The other thing I would like to point out is that the 7 churches noted in Revelation are Jewish churches - and it is clear they can lose their salvation, and the Book of Revelation emphatically states that the Kingdom of Heaven Gospel will be preached in this time (Tribulation) and the end will come shortly after. So there we have it, the Kingdom of Heaven gospel which was preached by the 12 Apostles in the 4 synoptic gospels is the same as that which will be preached to Israel in "times to come". The Kingdom of Heaven gospel is faith + works and it's what we see in the Book of Hebrews and James. Paul's uncircumcision gospel, what he calls the Gospel of Jesus Christ is grace through faith in the completed work of Christ upon the Christ + nothing, our salvation is eternally secure. The gospel we are to follow is stated by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

    Most of the Bible refers to the Kingdom of Heaven which God promised to the JEWS. The Jews are His earthly people - they are promised to rule with Him during the Millennial Kingdom. The Body of Christ is God's heavenly people, we are promised blessings in Heavenly places, we have nothing to do with the Kingdom of Heaven - read Paul's epistles and you will see this. Why do we always take the promises that God clearly gave to the Jews?

    If anyone says that Israel came about in 1948 according to Matthew 24's fig tree, that's not true. Today's Israel is but a shadow of the true Israel to come - take a look at it's geographical borders for starters, besides most of Israel consists of Zionist, Talmudic Jews who hate Christians and Christianity - is anyone aware that it's illegal to preach the gospel to any Jew in Israel? Christian Zionists are wrong in backing Israel today. Besides Matthew 24 is a rundown of the events of the time of Jacob's Trouble - that's when God will start bringing the true Israel together.

    We have to discern between Revelation and Prophecy. We are living in the time of Paul's Mystery that was revealed to Him by the RISEN LORD in Acts 9. Prophecy is for Israel, so are signs and wonders. Isn't it any wonder that most of Christianity today is getting their "signs of the times" totally wrong?

    What Paul does mention about the latter times is recorded in 2 Timothy 3, and that's very apt for today.

    And isn't it any wonder that Calvinists get their doctrine wrong as well, because they don't rightly divide the Word of Truth. There are only two "things" that are ever predestined or chosen in the Bible and they are:

    1) Israel - and is the whole of Israel saved? No.
    2) The Lord Jesus Christ was predestined and chosen by God to be the final and complete sacrifice for man's sins.

    So when Paul states that the Mystery was hid in God before the foundation of the world - He is saying that because God knew what route mankind would take, He already then planned to save us, He knew what He would do concerning the Body of Christ. But He kept it hidden, it wasn't part of prophecy in the OT like Israel's plan was - which speaks of the Millennial Kingdom and Christ reigning on the Davidic throne with the 12 apostles, when the nations once again have to go through Israel in order to be saved. You will notice in the Book of Revelation that is exactly what they do - they go to Israel, Jerusalem because they know that's where the Saviour of Mankind is.

    It's no wonder the Little Flock have to endure to the end because their gospel is for the remission of sins - they have to prove their faith by works. We can also see this in the Old Testament. But we don't see it at all in any of the Pauline Epistles. They will believe in the Risen Lord Jesus Christ + Works in order to be saved, the minute they take the Mark of the Beast they will be eternally damned, if they hate any of their brethren, they will be damned as well, because during the Tribulation period they will have have to help one another in order to survive and won't be able to write off one another willy nilly as Christians do today.
     
    #8 Goldie, Jun 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2009
  9. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2007
    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    2
    Goldie- I, kindly, have a lot of disagreements at this point :).

    What does this have to do with Hebrews 6?
     
  10. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is what W. Wiersbe states on the passages in question (and I agree) but the way he lays it out is very plain and easy to understand in accourdance with the exposition of those passages.

     
  11. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wondered that myself :)
     
  12. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,147
    Likes Received:
    322
    Hebrews 6
    1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
    2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
    3 And this will we do, if God permit.
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.​

    To whom does Hebrews 6 apply?
    The correct answer IMO does not contradict OSAS.

    My opinion is that it applies to those who hear the gospel, are convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit, given a foretaste of forgiveness of sin and its joy yet back away, do not accept Christ and do not enter into the "Sabbath" rest of God, Jesus Christ Himself being the true Sabbath rest.

    Hebrews 4
    9 There remaineth therefore a rest (Grk. sabbatismos) to the people of God.
    10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
    11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

    Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.​

    Here are a couple of examples of those who fall away (perhaps) in this manner:

    Acts 24
    24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
    25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.
    26 He hoped also that money should have been given him of Paul, that he might loose him: wherefore he sent for him the oftener, and communed with him.
    27 But after two years Porcius Festus came into Felix' room: and Felix, willing to shew the Jews a pleasure, left Paul bound.

    Acts 26
    19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
    20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
    21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
    22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
    23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
    24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
    25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.
    26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.
    27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.​
    28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

    If this is the case then Hebrews 6 declares:
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    This seems to say that having heard the gospel and refused they cannot be be brought back to this point of repentance and be saved having understood the price and would be recrucifying Christ so to speak.

    HOWEVER
    This passage is prefaced by this declaration as well:

    3. And this will we do, if God permit.

    In others words it is possible to bring them back to this point if God permits.

    I believe Paul was such a one.

    HankD​
     
  13. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interesting, I have never heard of this position before. Learning something new everyday :) However, I do disagree but that does not mean I'm right now does it :tongue3:
    I agree.

    I might agree except you 'seem' to have missed that Paul speaks to them as going on into maturity. This means they are already saved. And also he states 'those who were once enlightened, tasted, were made partakers of the heavenly gift" this wording is in the past tense meaning they have already come to the truth and even become partakers of it, and not potentially could have partook, tasted, ect..

    If I might suggest here, notice brother that Paul states we WILL rest as God rested. Let us LABOR THEREFORE to enter into that rest. That rest refers to when we die or as I believe - pertaining to fulness of God's promises in the resurrection. These are the redeemed that he is speaking to so how come they have not yet entered that rest. Becuase THIS rest is the rest when all is said and done, just as God did once all He had purposed was fulfilled.

    THis one fits more to your point - :thumbs:

    Yes, if the passages spoke toward your point these would be good examples.

    As I illistrated previously, it does not appear to be stating they heard the gospel (or even about the gospel) because they were 'partakers' of the Holy Ghost. Now if it only stated 'once enlightened' (or better once enlightened for all time) then I could agree but the writter goes beyond this with the rest. The word 'tasted' here refers to consciencly partaking of (comp with 1 Peter2:3) as well as 'to eat' (comp. with John 6:56). It is also important to note that the Holy Spirit is the 'heavenly gift' being refered to here (as is also noted in Act 2:38 and Acts 10:45) and though He is mentioned in the next clause it should be noted that both clauses here belong together and not seperated. THus the term 'and' placed between them (meaning in conjunction with the following). The term partaker means to 'share in', as in being one with.

    No that can not be at all brother. It states that it is 'impossible' for that to happen. Therefore it can not be possible. The 'if God permit' refers to the passages previously stated and thus refer to their to their continued life and thus into the maturity, or as many other scholars hold it refers to the teaching of those things that will lead them into more maturity - at a later date (if God permits)

    However, as I stated in a previous post I believe/hold to the passage isn't actually about salvation but repentence and continuing into spiritual maturity (bearing good fruit) as only believers will do
     
    #13 Allan, Jun 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2009
  14. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am writing a paper for seminary on Hebrews now, and have read the chapter on it in my book by Hiebert. He is really excellent.

    I am more convinced than ever it is written to believers. Not all commentators agree that these believers were going back to Judaism, but rather they were tempted to hide their Christian faith under their Jewishness, so to speak, since they were Jewish believers.
     
  15. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Noted, and it is a good arguable point. I think that what brings bring the Judism into view is not just the persecution of Jewish believers but from whom that persecution was coming. Then when the writter addresses that list of foundations which much be addressed as the believers foundational understandings of those things that are, and the Jewish foundational understanding of that which is to come. Much of them we can see the Christian view but when you are confronted with the 'doctrines of batpisms' and of 'laying on of hands' a person run into an interesting problem :)

    We do not have a doctrines of baptisms (plural) and what doctrine of laying on of hands is considered by christians as a foundational belief.

    With the arguments, this is where I see some issues but you are correct that both are viable and can be supported. But in either case niether view is really necessarily needed to see that the passages revolve around repentance and bearing friut as believers.
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    3,896
    Likes Received:
    0
    The author of Hebrews is answering a hypothetical question which has been asked of him. He is concerned with teaching them, giving them a proper understanding of the things of God.

    In chp.6.v.1 he says "Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance.......(v.3) and this we shall do, if God permits."

    The author is answering specific questions that have been asked of him. He is amazed at their lack of understanding (chapter 5. v.11-14) concerning the things of God and the things that accompany salvation (chp. 6 v. 9)

    v.4 "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened....... (v. 6) and have fallen away it is impossible to renew them to repentance...."

    The "for" indicates a pressing on toward maturity, a better understanding of the things of God.

    The author gives a hypothetical question from which to teach concerning an important issue, perhaps to answer a question they had asked.

    "What about those who have made professions of faith and have returned to a sinful lifestyle?"

    The author tells them that if they had been "enlightened" and had been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and had "fallen away" it would be impossible to renew them to repentance because they would have to crucify Jesus again.

    Notice he mentions renewing them to repentance. Repentance has already been mentioned as a foundational theology, necessary for salvation. This is clearly referring to salvation, since he mentions the cruifixion of Jesus which brought salvation. The passage is not talking about losing "rewards" in heaven. The context just doesn't allow for it.

    So, the argument of the author of Hebrews is that if a person were truly saved and had fallen away, it would be impossible to bring him to salvation again, because he would have to crucify Christ again.

    Therefore, we can only conclude that (1.) You can lose your salvation and never regain it, or (2.) You can't lose your salvation if you are truly made a partaker of Holy Spirit.

    I believe the context favors #2 because of verses 9-11

    v.9 "But beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and the things that accompany salvation...."

    The author demonstrates the hypothetical nature of v. 6+ by contrasting his teaching concerning this issue with what he believes and expects from his audience. He is convinced they will be involved in the things that accompany salvation.

    "The things that accompany salvation" is an important point in this passage. He demonstrates what is expected of those who are made partakers of Holy Spirit.

    v.10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in ministering to the saints (v.11) And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end."

    Expectation #1: Work and love toward the name of Christ
    Expectation #2: Ministry toward the saints of Christ
    Expectation #3: Diligence in the ministries to Christ
    Expectation #4: Assurance of your hope in Christ
    Expectation #5: Perservence to the end in Christ

    Notice the "things that accompany salvation" includes the expectation of diligence and minstry toward the name of Christ to the end. This directly applies to the hypothetical concerning someone who "falls away".

    Hope this helps

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #16 canadyjd, Jun 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2009
  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    3,896
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Water baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

    2. Baptism of Holy Spirit

    Two baptisms, consistent with reference to "doctrines of baptisms".

    Laying on of hands: The question is not if Christians are "laying on hands" today, but were they in the first century which would require teaching conerning the issue.

    Acts 6:6 "And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them."

    Acts 13:2 "And while they were ministring to the Lord and fasting the Holy Spirit said, 'Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them. (v.3) Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away."

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #17 canadyjd, Jun 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2009
  18. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,935
    Likes Received:
    45
    Paul says the things that "accompany salvation"thus we speak. He use the Children of Israel as examples"basically the whole book" of moving on and what happened? They blew it and never entered the promise land. It was imposable to start all over and be renewed because they missed Gods will. I also believe this was the sin unto death 1 John writes about. Moses was the spiritual leader and himself sinned by hitting the rock and later prayed 3 times God would relent....the answer was No don't ask me about this no more. Back to 1 John 5:16 says you shouldn't pray about that"sin unto death" because God had the final word. 1 John 5:15 talks about Gods will and 5:16 talks about a sin that can be serious enough for God to say no more of that......last chance.
     
  19. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2007
    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    2
    thanks everyone for the replies... I just got home from work and will wade through all of the posts shortly..

    -Zach
     
  20. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2007
    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    2
    thanks Allen (and Canadyjd), I am going to have to look into this further and think this through about 500 more times, :), like everything else..
     
    #20 zrs6v4, Jun 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2009

Share This Page

Loading...