Hebrews 6:4-6

Good point.

There is no point in warning against a mythical danger. Why take up scripture to warn us with impossible examples of things that can never happen.

It is much more logical and well reasoned to simply accept that "he was serious" and the danger is "real".

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is the most credible alternative explanation I've read. I'll have to re-study Hebrews 6 to see if I can poke any other holes in it save this one: What about the part when the author says "but I am confident of better things about you - things pertaining to salvation"? Doesn't that imply the former discourse referred to things pertaining to non-salvation?

 

No it does not --

#1. There are so many "IF YOU persevere firm until the end" statements in the NT that it is impossible to re-edit them all so they don't mean what they say.

#2. The text of 2 Tim 2 does not say "If we believe not - we are saved anyway" though that seems to be the revision needed.

#3. In Romans 3 we find the same thing "Though EVERY man be found a liar yet ...

though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "" THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.''

This is not a promise that all liars go to heaven.

#4. Christ said "By their fruits you SHALL know them" -- as it turns out -- He was telling the truth.

#5. Paul gives a list about people "Doing" certain things in Romans 2 -- notice what happens to the ones in rebellion??

#6. In Matt 18 Christ gives the most explicit example of "forgiveness" revoked seen in all of scripture - aside from Ezek 18 that is.

Now -- there is a statement of truth my friend. I agree.

Rejection of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ supernaturally DRAWING all mankind -- if you choose to reject that you choose to reject the only connection you have to freedom.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I picked number two. The first verse sets the tone and the purpose of the entire chapter. "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentence from dead works, and of faith toward God," Notice the writer said "IF they shall fall away" instead of using the word "when". I think vs. 4-6 is hypothetical. If my son continues in his bad behavior, I cannot exchange or take him back for a new son. He was born my son and NOTHING can change that fact, ever. Perhaps this would be a good text to explain "time salvation"...and I'm from Cincinnati, imagine that (this is an inside Primitive Baptist joke

 

I re-read the answers and must pick two options.
#2 AND #3. I can't pick one without the other.

 

John 6:37
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Apply John 6:37 to Hebrews 6: 4-6
Once you come how can you be cast out ?

 

Primitive Baptist writes:
What is the "sin unto death" (1 John 5:16)?

UMP writes:
I would say unbelief is the sin unto death.

 

I don't think that fits this context.

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

 

ALl the lost are currently choosing "not to believe" -- they have not committed the sin we are not to pray for.

It is not the same thing - else no one would ever get saved for in being lost to start with they would be guilty of the 1John 5 so for which we are not to pray.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Primitive Baptist writes:
"Do you mean Cincinnati Primitive Baptist Church as in Elder Lasserre Bradley"

Yes.

 

Primitive Baptist writes:
"If you are a member of Cincinnati Primitive Baptist Church, then you do not believe in conditional time salvation, right?"

Wrong, I think. I guess it depends on how you define it. Give me your definition, if you don't mind. On my end, let me give you my simple, yet probably weak analogy to the relationship I have with my son. He was born my son, nothing can change that fact. However, if he continually disobeys me, our relationship will not be what it could be. In fact, if need be, he will incur my wrath, yet still remain my son.

 

Primitive Baptist,
This is what I understand to be Time Salvation, and Yes, I agree.

http://www.primitivebaptist.org/writers/dalton%5Fts/time%20salvation.asp

 

Primitive Baptist said
The characteristics attributed to them could never be attributed to false professors.

And Bob Ryan said
IF you say they were never born again - then you give too much credit and "Ability" to the totally depraved nature as if IT could escape the slavery of sin "for a while".

I think you are giving too much weight to the inability of the lost. Yes, of themselves they are unable to see spiritual things. But God can give them insight, insight that falls short of saving knowledge. The conviction the Holy spirit brings upon many sinners who go on to reject the gospel, is part of that.

Consider the parable of the Soils. Here we have remarkable effects caused by the Holy Spirit, yet only one sort of hearer is saved. So likewise, the Heb.6:4-8 hearer has much more of God's goodness revealed to him than to most other sinners, but his heart is not changed and so he eventually turns away. The joy evaporates under the heat, the God-ward response is choked off by the cares of the world.

In Him

Ian

 

Primitive Baptist said
The characteristics attributed to them could never be attributed to false professors.

And Bob Ryan said
IF you say they were never born again - then you give too much credit and "Ability" to the totally depraved nature as if IT could escape the slavery of sin "for a while".

I am not sure I ever expected a Calvinist to accuse an Arminian of such a thing.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned - and "the Law is spiritual" Romans 7.

But more than that - the Heb 6 text says that they "ESCAPED" the corruption that is in the world. More than simply hearing about the offer of salvation - they actually "escaped" their doom.

On the contrary - 3 are saved -- 2 of the 3 are later lost. This is shown in the context of TD since 3 of the DEAD in fact COME to life -- SPRING TO LIFE -- but then 2 later die out.

This is simply devastating to your views.

However - IF "springing to life" is in the "Ability" of the totally depraved as you claim - then they can "save themselves". (Something even ARminians don't claim).

EVEN worse - you have the problem of Heb 6 and Luke 8 that they failed to REMAIN in that saved state as "the problem". However failing to be a totally depraved person (since you claim they were never saved) is NO PROBLEM AT ALL. Paul is NOT arguing for a "lesser hell".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan said
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned - and "the Law is spiritual" Romans 7.

And? Is the Holy Spirit not able to enlighten unsaved men as to the truth of the gospel? Men who will tremble under the certainty of it - but still not be saved, e.g. Felix.

But more than that - the Heb 6 text says that they "ESCAPED" the corruption that is in the world. More than simply hearing about the offer of salvation - they actually "escaped" their doom.

Exactly where is that verse? I can't find it.

On the contrary - 3 are saved -- 2 of the 3 are later lost. This is shown in the context of TD since 3 of the DEAD in fact COME to life -- SPRING TO LIFE -- but then 2 later die out.

This is your concept of TD, not Calvinism's. The parable reveals that the appearance of life in these lost ones was only a show, for only one sort received the word with a good heart. Receiving the word with a bad heart is not repentance and faith - it's just a desire for some of the good things salvation brings, but with the love of sin still supreme in one's heart.

However - IF "springing to life" is in the "Ability" of the totally depraved as you claim - then they can "save themselves". (Something even ARminians don't claim).

If 'sprang up' meant conversion in each case- but it does not. Profession does not equate with possession. Of all who profess, only some possess.

EVEN worse - you have the problem of Heb 6 and Luke 8 that they failed to REMAIN in that saved state as "the problem". However failing to be a totally depraved person (since you claim they were never saved) is NO PROBLEM AT ALL. Paul is NOT arguing for a "lesser hell".

The question is whether the Scripture is speaking of the 'saved state' or mere profession. The warning Hebrews gives is of the finality of apostasy - that those who receive such a great measure of enlightenment, if they walk away, are beyond the possibility of repentance. That is not true for the 'ordinary' sinner. The Hebrew readers were in that position of great privilege, and any who returned to Judaism would certainly be damned. That is the 'problem'.

In Him

Ian