Hebrews 6:4-6

Amen, Brother - Dan Todd -- Preach it!

 

Psdr.2: "People fighting over versions for years but they cannot discuss 2 verses of content."

You have set impossible conditions for this.

Psdr.2's unilateral* accuses: "Ed please stick to scripture
if we are to have any kind of bible discussion"

* The Bible requires 2 or more witnesses

1 Timothy 5:19 (HCSB):

Don't accept an accusation against an elder unless
it is supported by two or three witnesses.

If my using a dictionary and rules of logic
to explain the meaning of a verse is construed
as not sticking to scripture, then we have
little to discuss.

BTW, i've not see that you do too
great a job understanding what Hebrews 6:4-6 means.

 

I don't think this pertains to either eternal salvation, or timely salvation (that kind of salvation meant by 'save yourselves from this untoward generation').

This verse refers to "doctrinal enlightenment", the taste of spiritual joy that one experiences when one first receives the enlightening of the Holy Spirit as to what the word of God really is saying about Jesus Christ and about salvation, about God and His mercy, and about the fact that everything centered in and around Christ.

I think Paul is saying that when one chooses to reject gospel truth, it is impossible to bring them back to truth via repentance or a rejection of, a turning away from, the doctrines which they choose over what the Word of God said.

Remember that the writer was communicating to Hebrews, who were once works oriented, works clinging people.

Apparently, some converts from Judaism went back to the old ways, rejecting the truth about the Messiah and His atoning work, choosing instead to rely on their religion, tradition, and works.

 

psr2,

It would seem reasonable to assert (from your position) that many Christians simply accept OSAS and consequently interpret scripture accordingly to this presupposition. Do you not do the same.

The key to understanding salvation does not lie in this or that quote in Hebrews, Romans, or John - rather in an understanding of what salvation IS. One who is truly saved has become changed - the old man (or woman) is gone. If the Spirit lives inside then a change must occur. Is this something minor enough that it can simply be lost again?

I would argue that those in whom there is no change have never experienced salvation.

 

Psr.2 you have given us several passages now to go along with Heb 6:4-6. I will try to give you my take on each of them.

This verse looks pretty clear to me. It is impossible for the saved to ever fall away, if they did they could never be saved a second time because the death of Christ would have been insufficient to save them the first time.

Remember, when Christ died all your sins were future sins. He paid for the sins you committed as a child and the sins you will commit in your last days of life. All were paid for two thousand years in advance. When you trust Christ during your lifetime has nothing to do with it.

You then used Matt 24:13

Any connection between this verse and Heb 6 comes from taking Matt 24 out of context. Jesus is referring to believers in the last days before his return not the last days of their lives. Look at the entire chapter and this is clear. Verse 22 is a proof of this when it says

Jesus is not talking about keeping your salvation but of real physical persecution on the earth during the tribulation period.

Next you gave us Rev 13:15-17 and Rev 14:9-10. Your argument is that some could receive the mark of the beast and still be saved. Remember, those who receive the mark also worship the beast and his image. If they are truly worshiping the beast how could they be saved. Remember no man will come to God except the spirit calls them. I have no problem with the idea that those during the tribulation who worship the beast as God being cast into the lake of fire with him. You are also making the supposition here that once they received the mark they could not refuse it later. That may be true but is by no means clear.

Next You go to Luke 18:18-23 (I thought the idea here was to discuss Hebrews 6) This is a great verse of Jesus dealing with one individual. I see Jesus trying to show this man tat he was lost and needed salvation. The first step in our redemption is repentance and this man was in denial about his sin. Jesus points him to the law but he claims to have kept all of it his entire life. Now we know that is impossible. Jesus then shows him that he had broken the first commandment (Exodus 20:3)

This man broke that commandment for he loved his money more than God. Jesus shows him that and he leaves very sorrowful. Was he sorry because he realized he was a sinner. I believe this man may well have repented and turned to Christ. But first he had to realize he was lost and unable to do anything to save himself. His question was faulty from the start. He asked.

The answer of course is nothing, Jesus did all the doing. Jesus knew he had broken the commandments and showed him that Our salvation is not of our works but His.

OK, then you go to Matt 25:14-46. The unprofitable servant looses his talent and is in a place of sorrow, but I think you are making a big jump to say he was saved and lost his salvation. How many preachers have failed to keep that which God has given them and how many tears are the result. I do not see any correlation to eternal security.

Then you go back to Revelations for 20:15 and 22:19. These verses do not prove anyone will loose their salvation. Yes, if your name is blotted out of the book of life it means you did not get saved. I think it is important that everyone's name is in the book of life, but the lost are taken out. That idea proves that all can be saved and there is no one predestined for hell. However let me ask you, how can anyone take words out of the Bible if they are settled forever in heaven? (Ps 119:89) Clearly Rev 22:19 is a warning for us to be careful in our handling of the word of God and we should be careful, but no man can destroy those things God has written.

You seem to be in a big hurry to argue about this issue. 34 posts in one day, I think it took me 3 months to post that many. Why don't you wait for more replies?

I think John 10 which has been used in this thread already is the best passage to refute your ideas. The basic truth is if you did not do anything to earn salvation (and you did not) then you can't do anything to keep it, otherwise it becomes something we have done. Remeber Ephesians 2:8-9?

 

"Bow out"?
NOt only do we not speak the same
anguage, i doubt we are
we in the same universe?

" ... just say that you can't explain it ... "

That is easy.
Finding someone to understand is the hard part.

Before progressing too much further,
recommend you read the last couple of pages
of this topic:

Ed's Catalogue of KJVO Double Standards

2 Peter 2:10 (Third Millennium Bible)
but chiefly those who walk after the flesh
in the lust of uncleanness, and despise governance.
Presumptuous are they and selfwilled;
they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities,

BTW, i construe Don Todd to be a "dignitary".

 

Amen, Brother North Carolina Tentmaker -- Preach it!

 

Amen, Brother CHarles Meadows -- Preach it!