Hebrews 8

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Chowmah, Aug 28, 2010.

  1. Chowmah

    Chowmah
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    HEBREWS 8 [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD. NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

    Has the above scripture come to the full or even in part?
     
  2. billwald

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    Not even in part. This is a NT citation of an OT prophecy that Christians like to claim so that they can feel spiritually superior to the OT Jews and to the modern Jews.

    Evidence? Sunday School classes. Stuff that is "PUT . . . LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS" doesn't need to be drilled into our memory by rote. There would be no college degrees in theology for the same reason there are no college degrees in the multiplication tables. We would automatically know the correct answer to most every theological question that is raised on every website.
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Hello Chowmah,

    This is a great question, and one I feel will have an even greater impact on your walk with the Lord.

    To answer the question in short...absolutely this is in effect today.

    While the quotation is given to Israel specifically, I would remind you that Gentile inclusion in the salvation of God was until the beginning of the Body of Christ, the Church, unknown.

    To answer the question at length, and to show scriptural support for my belief, this is something from another post...



    Many in Christendom hold to the position that salvation is a race to be run, the prize for a race well run being eternal life.

    I hold to the position that scriptures teaches clearly that man is separated from God from the transgression of one man, Adam, and that reconciliation of that separation comes from one man, Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, Who took the sins of the world upon Himself, making atonement for that sin.

    The major thrust of that being, it is something that God did.

    When we look at the when and where of salvation in the life of the believer, we must either conclude that either we are saved at some point in time, and that would carry with it all that is associated with salvation, or, we are "put in reserve," until our works are judged, and we are found faithful enough to enter the presence of God.

    Now the latter, I believe, will raise red flags to the Spirit led believer, because as I believe that all men know there is a God, I believe that all Christians know that they are saved by God alone, though some would add works to the mix in order to satisfy the natural, religious nature of man.

    Where to start (and you may be sorry you asked):

    I will assume you are familiar with the Covenants between God and man, and will direct your attention to the two that are prominent concerning salvation for man today.

    The Covenant of Law, or, the Mosaic Covenant;

    The New Covenant.

    These two are contrasted in the book of Hebrews, the Covenant of Law being the "old," and the New Covenant being the "better."

    I will jump to a passage that gives the promise of the New Covenant, and in particular, the description of what is contained in that promise:


    Ezekiel 36:22-27 (King James Version)

    22Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

    23And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

    24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



    Found here is, I believe, a description of the new birth.

    I trust you read through them, but lets look at it again contrasted with New Testament teaching, starting here:

    John 3

    1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

    2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

    3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

    10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


    One thing I am sure of, the Lord does not expect us to know something He has not revealed to us, so His description of the new birth is something He has previously revealed to this "teacher," who should have understood the terminology, or, at the very least, the beginning principles of what He was saying.

    Now look at this again, and keep in mind, though the promise is given to Israel, it was a mystery that it would also be given to Gentiles...something unthinkable in the mind of the Jew (which is why such a big deal about salvation being granted to gentiles is made in the book of Acts):


    Ezekiel 36:22-27 (King James Version)



    22Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.



    This concerns Israel, and I believe this began in 1948. If you look at a generation being seventy years, we are coming to the close of this age.

    23And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.


    Though Gentiles (as well as a remnant of Jews) experience blessings of the New Covenant, there is yet a fulfillment on this earth for an earthly Kingdom which will be ruled by Christ...the Millennial Kingdom.


    24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


    Again, I believe this is happening, and setting the stage for the tribulation.


    25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    Though there is a future fulfillment for National Israel (all Israelites who enter the Millennial Kingdom will be saved, fulfilling that which is said, "All Israel will be saved) concerning the New Covenant, but for the Church, we see these very blessings described and attributed to those who are saved...born again.

    Post too long, will repost second half.

    God bless.
     
  4. Darrell C

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    Continuation:

    Consider:

    John 3

    5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.



    Titus 3

    4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

    5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

    7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


    Ephesians 5:25-26 (King James Version)

    25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

    26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,




    26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    In relation to the new heart, notice what God will do with unbeliever's hearts in the New Covenant:


    Jeremiah 31:31-34 (King James Version)

    31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

    33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    In relation to the ability to please God and to follow His statutes, we see also in Ezekial 11:

    Ezekiel 11:17-20 (King James Version)



    17Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

    18And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

    19And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
    20That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.


    Obedience to God in my estimation, is impossible for the natural man.

    Ye must be born again.

    In regards to the spirit mentioned in this verse, time will not permit to get into that tonight, suffice it to say, there could be a couple of ways to look at this:

    The spirit could be viewed as the life which God gives, which we would all admit that the life which we receive in the new birth is both new, and better;

    It could be viewed as the governing power within man, contrasted with the heart, which we could consider to be the intent of man (i.e., he had a heart for missions), whereas the spirit is the actual driving force of the man which is put into action, i.e., he had a spirit of anger.





    27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


    And this goes without explanation: the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    We know that the Spirit of God worked in the lives of men under the Covenant of Law as well as before that (Samson, for example), but the promise of the Comforter was given by the Lord as a future event, which we see accomplished on the Day of Pentecost.

    So, having said all that, even as those in the book of Acts received the Holy Spirit, Who is said to be the "earnest" or downpayment of our inheritance and the guaratee of our resurrection unto immortality and our presence with the Lord, we receive this blessing of the New Covenant when we are born-again, and this is an instantaneous occurrence.

    We are as David, of who, when anointed, it is said, "The Spirit of the Lord came upon him from that day forward."

    Sorry for the length. Look forward to conversing with you.

    God bless.
     
  5. Chowmah

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    Howdy Darrell C
    First you say this covenant is here today. Then show me Ezek 36 as proof of this. What about verse 24. The "gathering" has not yet occured. God has not brought His people back to their own land as promised. It will happen in the twinkling of an eye but the last trumpet has not yet sounded.
     
  6. Darrell C

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    Howdy.

    Are you sure the gathering isn't happening today?

    Are you sure that it didn't begin in 1948?

    No matter, would you take Paul's word for it?

    2 Corinthians 3:6 (King James Version)

    6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


    And before you decide that the new testament mentioned here is speaking about the written word, I would suggest to you that the words covenant and testament are the same word.

    God bless.
     
  7. Darrell C

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    And...the gathering you speak of is completely different from the gathering of Israel.

    Was your question not a legitimate one, or were you baiting?

    Just curious.

    God bless.
     
  8. percho

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    I would like to know what day and year this was written. Ready to vanish. When exactly did it vanish away? This seams to imply that it had not yet vanished at the time of this writing.
     
  9. billwald

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    Darrel C, then you wrote the scripture verses from the translation that is written in your heart and didn't need to refer to a written text? Good work!
     
  10. percho

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    Could it have began in Acts 2?
     
  11. Chowmah

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    It was ligit. But when i see something contrary to the Word i will speak up. As i hope you would
     
  12. Darrell C

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    Would you show me what is not legitimate?

    God bless.
     
  13. Darrell C

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    The temple seems to be standing at the time of the writing, I believe that it vanished when the temple was destroyed, and they could no longer offer sacrifice for their sin.

    God bless.



    Please elaborate.

    God bless.


    The poster equated the gathering up of the Church with the regathering of Israel.

    Two separate occurences.

    The regathering of Israel, I believe, started in 1948...thats just my belief.

    If we count a generation to be seventy years, we are on the brink of the culmination of these prophecied events.

    Even so, come Lord Jesus.

    God bless.
     
  14. billwald

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    >>Darrel C, then you wrote the scripture verses from the translation that is written in your heart and didn't need to refer to a written text? Good work!

    >Please elaborate.

    If the word of God is written in your mind and your heart then you don't need to have the written text in front of you when you quote it . . . it is in your heart and mind.

    Do you need the multiplication table in print in front of you every time you want to multiply two numbers? If not, why not? Maybe because it is written in your mind? Was your 4th grade teacher a better "mind writer" than God?
     
  15. Darrell C

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    It seems you are advocating, what?

    Just give your opinion?

    Don't present the scripture from which you base your theology?

    How about giving your opinion (something positive) about your belief concerning the topic at hand?

    And give scriptural basis for it.

    So I can understand why you believe what you believe, and be assured that you base your position on scripture...not just stating what you want to believe, despite the scripture.

    God bless.
     
  16. billwald

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    I am advocating the idea that the prophecy that God's Law is written on anyone's heart and mind has not come to pass. The evidence is that no one demonstrates that capacity and ability to access God's Law from their heat and mind. Everyone on this list seems to need the text in front of them and no one recognizes the the text without the chapter and verse. Brother criticizes brother for not supplying chapter and verse.

    It is said that one could lock a dozen orthodox rabbis in a room with only blank paper and ink and they could reproduce the law. A dozen preachers would be hard pressed to reproduce the Sermon on the Mouintain.
     
  17. Darrell C

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    I would have to disagree.

    Among the twelve preachers there would be at least one born again believer to whom the Holy Spirit would bring remembrance of the teaching of Jesus Christ.

    The supplying of the text is for the benefit of the reader, and those who might be visiting.

    Don't forget that the world looks in on these forums, and one thing the world will reject is more opinion.

    Without the supplied word of God, that is all we offer...opinions.

    Nevertheless, if I have opprtunity to speak with you again, I will try to remember to limit the addresses of my beliefs.

    God bless.
     
  18. Chowmah

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    Im sure. Itll be done in the twinkling of an eye. The last trumpet has not yet sounded.
     

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