Hebrews 9:27

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Travelsong, Nov 7, 2002.

  1. Travelsong

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    I think I have a pretty good grasp of the Calvinist perspective that God has chosen a specific people from the foundation of the world, but I am curious how the free will crowd reconciles verses like the above with respect to the millions and billions of people in civilizations which were never given the oppurtunity to "choose" Jesus as saviour i.e. Aborginal tribes, Aztecs, American Indians, Celts etc. etc.

    In my opinion the God who leaves the choice of salvation up to man and then allows only certain people to gain access to the knowledge which could save them is infinitely more cruel than the God who has chosen whom He will save from the beginning of time.

    Am I missing something here?
     
  2. ForumChaplain

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    I think I have a pretty good grasp of the Calvinist perspective that God has chosen a specific people from the foundation of the world, but I am curious how the free will crowd reconciles verses like the above with respect to the millions and billions of people in civilizations which were never given the oppurtunity to "choose" Jesus as saviour i.e. Aborginal tribes, Aztecs, American Indians, Celts etc. etc.

    In my opinion the God who leaves the choice of salvation up to man and then allows only certain people to gain access to the knowledge which could save them is infinitely more cruel than the God who has chosen whom He will save from the beginning of time.

    Am I missing something here?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Do you sing his praises because you fancy yourself one of the chosen.

    God has neither chosen who he will save, nor has he chosen to whom he will reveal himself. God has chosen and made known the criteria that is salvation. And it is without respect of persons availiable to all men. That means without respect of any elect.

    Would you think it cruel if you ended up in hell because of it. Only those that think (think) that they are of the elect will sing thisw song... And it is a cruel song to say the least....

    Your quest depends on wheither you are asking because you have a made up mind, and you are just seeking an answer that you stand ready and willing to disprove, or is your mind open to whatever answer is posted subject only to the scrutiny of scripture.

    Which is it? Are you a calvinist?????

    [ November 07, 2002, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  3. ForumChaplain

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    ]

    [ November 07, 2002, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  4. tyndale1946

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    I speak as one of the Primitive Baptist brethren and according to Revelation 5 & 7 this question is fully answered.

    Revelation 5:[9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    [10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    Revelation 7:[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    [10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

    Salvation to our God... Who is crying with a loud voice? All of Gods blood bought children... of all nations, kindreds, people, and tongues. Since they are clothed with white robes and palms in their hands they belong to God and his Son Jesus Christ died for them.

    Revelation 14:[6] And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    [7] Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    I know most of post or premills are going to use the preaching of the everlasting gospel to include those that you say never heard the gospel. I personally don't beleve that but to each his own during the thousand year reign... Then again that is another can of worms and there are many posts on that... I'll just leave you with what I've been saying all along!

    "Jesus Christ died for all the Father had given him and will not lose a one"... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ November 07, 2002, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  5. ForumChaplain

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    The only part of your post that is an untruth is the part that you chose to embolden. Fancy that..

    The part that is true tho, never mentions salvational predestination, irrisistible grace, or any of that funny stuff....
     
  6. tyndale1946

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    So Chappie you believe that God will lose one of his blood bought children?... Isn't that what you said?... Bible... Chapter and verse?... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  7. ForumChaplain

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    Brother glen:
    I would be tickeled pink if you would just show me where i said that. You do that, then we'll find it in the bible.
     
  8. tyndale1946

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    The only part of your post that is an untruth is the part that you chose to embolden. Fancy that..

    This is the part that was embolden... What I take to mean in bold print!

    "Jesus Christ died for all the Father had given him and will not lose a one"... Now Chappie again I ask you... Bible... Chapter and verse?... Now did you say it or not?... If you do not believe it... Prove it?... Brother Glen... I'm waiting!
     
  9. BobRyan

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    I find it interesting that at best you are arguing "Degrees of cruelty".

    #1 God "manufactures hell" accordingt to Matt 10 and the lake of fire is absolutely a "manufactured event" according to Rev 20.

    #2. So your scenario above - is like saying "I find the God that deliberately decides to poke your eye out with a stick long before you were born to be LESS cruel than the infinitely more cruel God that would ALLOW you to stand in a place where He knows ahead of time that will result in your eye being poked out with a stick".

    Your "scenario" has a few problems - but that is nothing compared to your view of what is monsterous or cruel behavior. I would agrue that you are presenting "degrees of cruelty" in your scenario and trying to find the "less cruel" version.

    But in the Arminian system God does NOT "convict the citizens of Christians countries of sin and righteousness and judgment". RATHER in the Arminian model John 16 says "God convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

    In the ARminian system we do not say that "Christ draws all in Christian countries unto Him" - rather we read John 12:32 as saying that God "Draws ALL MANKIND unto Him".

    Until this point all the above is common to Arminians. But here is a "solution" that I find in Romans 2:13-16 that I do not claim ALL Arminians are comfortable with.

    It deals with those who had no access to scripture at all (Just as Heb 4:1-2 deals with those that had no access to the complete history of Christ as we have it today).

    Those without God's Word were shown in the case above to have the New Covenant promise "God's Law written on the heart" Heb 8:10 and are therefore accounted by God as spiritual Jews - those that are joined to God as part of His family (as the term is taken to mean in Romans 2 and Ephesisans 2).

    So God is not sending them to hell simply because they were not born in the right location - rather He is fully able to "Draw ALL mankind" even those who live "in darkness".

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ November 09, 2002, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  10. KenH

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    Amen.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  11. Travelsong

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    I sing His praises because I am compelled to.

    How does this statement hold up in light of verses like Romans 8:28 and 29?

    At what point is the Gospel made available to the unevangelized?

    Can you clarify this statement please?

    It looks to me like you're mind is already made up and determined to judge anyone who opposes you and yet me having my mind made up is a bad thing?

    I am always ready for the truth to be revealed by the only reliable standard which is Scripture.

    I am pretty sure that I am.I agree with just about every thing I've seen posted here on the Calvinist side since I began reading this forum.

    I really just wanted an answer in response to my original post.These emotional knee jerk responses which are so typical of the free willers don't help one bit.

    I want to know how God in your view of Him who allows people to be saved based firstly on the luck of their birth should they be so fortunate to live in a society that has access to the Gospel of salvation, is more loving than the fully sovereign God embraced by your opponents here who happen to view salvation as a plan worked out before the beginning of time to save a specific people from a world condemned to perish.I think this is a legitimate question that deserves to be answered by someone level headed enough to tackle it with Scripture and without such an accusatory tone.

    Thanks [​IMG]
     
  12. Helen

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    Hi Travelsong (I love that handle),

    I am a non-Calvinist and I think there is a way you might not be seeing here, because I truly believe God has loved each person He has created through time and that there is no adult person He has not given the choice to. Part of what I have found, I wrote here, last night, in another forum:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001161;p=7

    last post on that page.

    That's probably the easiest way to approach your question without writing a whole 'nother essay. See what you think. You don't have to agree, obviously, but maybe it will at least make more sense to you.
     
  13. tyndale1946

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    Helen said... The oldest of the Vedas recall one God and creation and the Promise. I was stunned. Then I read some books by missionaries: Peace Child, Bruchko, Salvation in the Killing Fields, One Bright Shining Path, Evidence Not Seen, Genesis and the Mystery Confucious Couldn't Solve.

    They knew. The ancient languages. The ancient writings, the ancient cultures -- they knew. The story had started clear and then come down muddled, but they KNEW! They knew there was one Creator God. They knew man had done something horrid and we had all suffered as a result, and they knew that God had promised to fix things Himself. There had evidently been, in every tribe, in every culture, at every time, in some way or another, something of the ancient Promise to believe in. God had not abandon anyone. Our job was to tell them how God made it come true -- but the Promise they already knew. And there would have been a few at any given time who depended on this unknown God and His half-remembered Promise of help.

    Helen Primitive Baptist brethren believe this without question thoughout every civilization God has had a people set aside that he redeemed and they belong to him. I would appreciate it if you would start a thread according to the obsevations you brought up. Why have Christians down through the ages of time views these different cultures and peoples as heathen and savages when they were anything but?... Were they really in total darkness or is that just a Christian assumption?... Brother Glen :confused:
     
  14. Helen

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    Will do, Glen. But later today, OK? I'm signing off for now as the outside is warming up enough for me to clean up the yard more between storms -- it's due to rain more tomorrow!

    But I'll be thinking about what is the best way to try to present what I have found without seeming TOO California blonde, OK?

    :D
     
  15. Robert J Hutton

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    Warm Christian greetings!

    In answer to the point made in the first post about people not being given a chance to hear the Gospel I would suggest a close look at the following verses:

    Romans 8 v 29-30.

    Every single one of God's elect will be saved, not one will be lost. Moreover, according to the Bible there will be people in Heaven from every nation, people, kindred and tongue.

    Kind regards

    Robert J Hutton
     
  16. tyndale1946

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    I agree with what you say but when you bring the written gospel to a people that have never heard it... are you regenerating the heart by the gospel... or is the Holy Spirit that changed the heart already and have ploughed the soil so to speak to receive the good seed got there before you?... Gospel regeneration which I don't believe in compared to Spiritual regeneration which I do!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  17. npetreley

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    IMO, this implies that unless God gives the increase (however you want to interpret that, whether by His Spirit or some other mechanism), then nothing happens.
     

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