Held over in Paradise????

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Mar 1, 2015.

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  1. steaver

    steaver
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    Their sins were not yet forgiven, they remained until Jesus Christ was sacrificed. God could not yet dwell in them, they could not yet enter into the holies. Hebrews makes this crystal clear, but you will have to remove the Calvinism glasses and allow the Spirit to teach you if you want to make an honest effort to understand....

    Heb 10:1
    For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
    Understand that the "shadow of things to come" is not sufficient to allow a person to enter into a union with God, nor enter into the holy of holies with God. If it were sufficient then there would be no necessity of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Heb 10:2
    For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
    Heb 10:3
    But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
    Notice it is a "remembrance", a teaching that you are a sinner and you need a sacrifice.

    Heb 10:4
    For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
    Pay close attention! The sacrifices of bulls and goats did NOT take away sins. They were merely a shadow of the Messiah to come, a teaching to prepare Israel to understand their Messiah's purpose. These believers were still in their sins, unable to go into the presence of the LORD.

    Heb 10:5
    Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
    Heb 10:6
    In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    "No pleasure". They were NOT sufficient!

    Heb 10:7
    Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
    Heb 10:8
    Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
    Heb 10:9
    Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
    Heb 10:10
    By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
    How are we scanctified? Through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all.

    Heb 10:11
    And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
    Understand, those sacrifices made by the priest NEVER took away sins.

    Heb 10:12
    But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
    Heb 10:13
    From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
    Heb 10:14
    For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
    Heb 10:15
    Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
    Heb 10:16
    This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
    Now, and only now, after the actual sacrifice of Jesus Christ for sins, is the NEW covenant enforced, which is, Christ In You!

    Heb 10:17
    And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
    Heb 10:18
    Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
    Heb 10:19
    Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
    Now, one can enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus.

    Heb 10:20
    By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
    Now, by a "new and living way".

    Heb 10:21
    And having an high priest over the house of God;
    Heb 10:22
    Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
    Now, we have been washed with pure water.

    Heb 10:23
    Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)

    A Holy God could not dwell within a sinful man UNTIL the atonement was made. There is no such thing as regeneration before Jesus Christ was glorified. John even makes this clear John 7:39. Jesus makes this clear when He speaks of Peter being converted. Conversion is regeneration. Except ye be converted, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of God.

    True believers pre-cross awaited the cross in a place referred to as Paradise. Jesus said to the thief on the cross, today you shall be with me in paradise. When Mary met Jesus after His resurrection what did He say to her? "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father". Where did He go while His body lay lifeless for three days? Where did Jesus tell the thief he would be "with Him" that very day? Answer, Paradise. Not Heaven, Not with the Father.
     
    #1 steaver, Mar 1, 2015
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  2. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318
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    I don't have a problem with the idea of Paradise. And I didn't even have to change my view on Calvinism.
     
  3. steaver

    steaver
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    How do you reconcile a believer coming into a holy union with a Holy God (regeneration) before the sacrifice of Jesus Christ taking away their sin? Hebrews makes it clear sin remained until Jesus Christ's sacrifice.
     
  4. blessedwife318

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    Yes I know. Hebrews is a great book. There is nothing that needs to be reconciled.
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    Jesus had already acted as mediator [He began his work as mediator and surety]or creation and the fall could not happen.rev13:8

    obviously the fine verses in Hebrews were speaking of the L........the Covenant death of the Lord Jesus Christ ...which the op is not acquainted with:thumbsup:
    l
     
    #5 Iconoclast, Mar 1, 2015
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  6. steaver

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    Take off the Calvinism glasses and read it sometime.....
     
  7. blessedwife318

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    Again I fail to see what you think needs to be reconciled. I believe in the idea of Paradise like you posted and I'm a Calvinist. I think Hebrews is a wonderful book, just finished a study on it actually, and I'm still a Calvinist. Why the ax to grind with me especially when I'm not even disagreeing with you about either Hebrews or Paradise?
     
  8. steaver

    steaver
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    I assumed you understood Calvinism teaches regeneration (union with God) has always taken place, even before Jesus' sacrifice to take away the sins of the world. You have not answered how a Holy God can join Himself with a sinner before the atonement has been made. Secondly, how a sinner can enter into the presence of God without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
     
  9. blessedwife318

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    First question, that's a huge assumption about me on your part especially since I have said 3 times now that I have no problem with the idea of Paradise.
    Second question is simple he can't and if you think he can enter any other way then through the sacrifice if Jesus Christ then that is a problem.

    So again why the ax to grind? Is it so hard to believe that there is some common ground between us?
     
  10. steaver

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    The whole premise of Calvinism is that God must first regenerate a person for them to believe. I am glad you agree that this cannot be according to Hebrews, what is puzzling is why you still believe Calvinism is correct.
     
  11. blessedwife318

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    Simple: It is what I see clearly taught in Scripture.
    From the OT with God choosing Israel, to the NT with God choosing the elect before the foundations of the World. Nothing in this thread changes or even really disputes those teachings.

    Deu. 7:6-8, 14:2, Ps 135:4, Jer 31:9-11
    1 Cor 2:7 Eph 1, 1 Thess. 1:4, Titus 1:1, Rev 13:8
    Just to list a few verses. Although it really doesn't have to do with your OP. :)
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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  13. McCree79

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    Jesus died before the thief. So why did the thief go to paradise? Before Jesus gave up his spirit he said, "It is finished.....so, why was the thief in paradise instead of Heaven?

    And after Jesus ascends(after resurrection)...Paul says Jesus was caught up to paradise. So is he still there? If so, how his he at God's right hand? Why would he go to paradise after death and the resurrection?

    In the same chapter, 2 Corinthians 12. He also says Jesus was caught up to the 3rd Heaven. According to common enumeration, 1st Heaven is the atmosphere of birds and clouds, 2nd was the sky of the stars and 3rd is the dwelling place of God. So Paul says Jesus was caught up to paradise and the 3rd heaven.....which is where God dwells. Paradise is Heaven. 3 times in the NT paradise is used. Here in 2 Corinthians, Rev 2:7 and Luke 23:43. All 3 times it is referring to Heaven.....the 3rd Heaven, the dwelling place of God.

    There is no where in the bible where a paradise holding station is taught. I would even be willing to consider we(deceased) are in some sort of sleep until the 2nd coming.....don't necessarily believe it. But would consider it. But Paradise....it isn't taught in the Bible.
     
  14. McCree79

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    So....
    If one disagrees with Steaver, you get attacked.

    If one agrees with Steaver, you get attacked as well??? Didn't BW318, just agree with him and was basically told she wasn't allowed to agree with him???

    She appears to be openly accepting your point Steaver. Why attack her? I am fairly new here, but what I see of BW318, she seems calm and very respectful.
    *I don't see paradise being part of the "Calvinism" debate. Seems to be a separate issue to me.
     
  15. blessedwife318

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    I agree this issue has nothing to do with Calvinism. Its seems like it would be more of a dispensation vs covenant theology debate since I know that the idea of Paradise seems to be a dispensationalist thing. I still consider myself as leaning toward dispensationlism but I have been studying covenant theology a lot more since that is how my husband leans and he and I have debated the idea of Paradise. It is not a hill either one of us would die on though.
     
  16. McCree79

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    Check out New Convent Theology sometime. I have recently started looking at it hard, since I had a hang up or two on covenant theology.

    The issue of paradise, really isn't that big of a deal. It is more of an idea to explore for fun.
     
  17. blessedwife318

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    Yeah I do need to look at New Convent Theology as well. Although I think I have decided that every system is going to have some flaws. As I told my husband before we got married I try as much as possible to have my frame match with Scripture not have Scripture match my frame. We all come to the Bible with some kind of framework, we just have to realize that and let it be flexible around the Scripture.

    As I have told Stever before I was raised Wesleyan so that was the framework I knew and yet as I read the Bible, I had to keep changing my frame until it was clear I was leaning Calvinist. Makes me a bit of a black sheep in my family but I have to be faithful to the Scriptures.
     
  18. steaver

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    Not sure you are reading the same post everyone else is. This is a debate room, correct? Unless you consider disagreement attacking. Please show a quote from me when I attacked her, or anyone else in any other thread for that matter. You may be confusing me with brother Icon....:smilewinkgrin:
     
  19. steaver

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    Those are responses from "dis-satisfied" customers. Sometimes when one has their post scrutinized under the Light and contradictions appear they are going to get a little defensive. This shouldn't really be though if one is truly after the truth. Adjustments to points of view should be what takes place, but as someone once said, old habits die hard.

    It probably would really help your accusation if you could provide a quote from one of these and then one from me when I spun it....but I'm sure none will come forth...cause there really isn't any......just frustration from having one's words held to the Light.
     
  20. steaver

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    You haven't refuted any of my commentary given within the OP, where I established my pov from the scriptures. Maybe go through it and show me where I am making mistakes.
     
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