Hell as Chastisement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lacy Evans, Sep 29, 2006.

  1. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    I wanted to open a new thread to discuss one particular aspect of our conversations on the "Two Salvations" thread. (That thread is all over the place.)

    In debating some on both sides of the Millennial Exclusion issue were able to agree somewhat that the blood of Christ does not "save" us from filial chastening. Our disagreement seems to be one of degrees. (I hope that is not over simplifying our differences.)

    Millennial Exclusionists believe that the chastening can be severe and can include missing the kingdom. We disagree as to where those excluded will be stashed. Some (Zane Hodges, Charles Stanley, AE Wilson, etc) believe it is a place called "outer darkness" that is in heaven but outside the marriage supper. Others (like me) believe that those who miss the kingdom will be placed in the underworld. (Hell-Not the same place as the Lake of Fire-see Rev 20:14)

    Here are some of my questions (That got buried in the other thread) for those who disagree.

    ?????Does the phrase "ye belong to Christ" in Mark 9:41 mean that John was eternally saved?

    ??????In verse 9:50, who is Jesus addressing?
    ????In Mark 9:38, John is speaking. When the Lord answers him, who does the "thy" (second person singular) refer to in Mark 9:43?


    ?????This guy in Luke 12 has two choices:Be wise and faithful or be a drunkard who beats his fellow servants. His behavior is the only issue (Works). His status as the Lord's servant is never questioned. It's the same guy with two paths to follow. What is a "portion with the unbelievers"?

    That will do to start.

    lacy
     
    #1 Lacy Evans, Sep 29, 2006
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  2. Diggin in da Word

    Diggin in da Word
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    If you will read that verse in context, Jesus was not speaking to John alone, but all His disciples. For John said 'There came one... and WE forbad him...'

    Since Jesus did not say 'Whosoever has given you,' but 'Whosoever shall give you, ' it implies future tense, not present. I think what tinytim answered in another thread applies. They all belonged to Jesus (All that thou has given me, I have kept; save the son of perdition) except for Judas. They were not sealed at that time so satan was able to use them.



    Same as above, the disciples.


    verses 42 through 50 are a warning about hell. The thy is plural, He was speaking to the group of disciples, not just one.




    Revelation 21:8 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Just because the one was the Lord's servant does not mean that one was saved. In the Old Testament God used a wicked man (Ahab) to feed God's prophets, so God can use the wicked for His purpose. He also used Judas, the son of perdition in the New Testament.

    I could bring my nephew into my shop to work for me. Now, he could work and do the job he was asked to do, yet while doing the job, could steal from me, or from one of my custoners, making him unworthy to merit my favor. I would not keep him in the job if I knew he was stealing from me.

    Christ knows those who are His. He knew Judas was the son of perdition, yet allowed him to company with him and work with him and the other disciples. Yet, Judas was not saved.

    Many will go to Christ reminding Him of works they did and will be turned away. Mayb will lie about works and be turned away.
     
    #2 Diggin in da Word, Sep 29, 2006
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  3. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Thy is never plural.

    He was speaking directly to John.
     
  4. Diggin in da Word

    Diggin in da Word
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    John asked and I cannot for the life of me see the verse that says Jesus took John aside and told him one one one.

    Not, the fact that John said 'we in his addressing Jesus, proves that Jesus was speaking to the group as a whole.

    Thy in that passage, as in may others in the Word of God, is plural.
     
  5. StefanM

    StefanM
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    Elizabethan English:

    Thou, thee, thy, thine--all singular

    Ye, you, your, yours--all plural, except in certain cases to show respect
     
  6. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    But why warn them that if they failed to "cut off" the sinful members of their life, they would go to Hell? If they were unsaved, would that get them saved? If you interpret them to be unbelievers, you're left with a terrible doctrine that says we must cut off and pluck out the sin in our life to get saved.

    Why, if he was addressing unbelievers, did he not simply give them the gospel? What possible good could a sermon like "cut off your hand" and "pluck out your eye" do for an unbeliever. He could pluck out both eyes and cut off both hands and still bust Hell wide open.



    But if he was getting a reward (ruling with his Lord over his Lord's household) in the first verse (v42) of the parable, doesn't that prove that he is a saved individual? Surely a non-Christian has no rule in the Lord's household. Notice it was the same guy. It didn't change to another guy. Whatever interpretation you apply to the servant in verse 42 must likewise apply to "that same servant" in v.45

    The only difference was what he was found doing.

    This is exactly correct. But he would still be your nephew. he would just be a disobedient nephew who was subject to exclusion from your job. You might even have him thrown in jail "till he pays the uttermost farthing"

    Judas' not being saved is a church tradition that I have always believed too but the Bible is not that clear. I

    If he ever believed the gospel, he was saved. We can't know. Only God knows. The only difference between his and Peter's sin was a matter of degrees. . .and that Judas died in his sin having never repented.
     
  7. Diggin in da Word

    Diggin in da Word
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    So,

    Jesus was telling John to allow those that were not of the disciples to continue, but not the other eleven? That does not make sense. All were there. Jesus was speaking to all, not just John. Thy in that case would have to be plural.
     
  8. Diggin in da Word

    Diggin in da Word
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    If Judas did not repent, he was never saved. The Bible clearly tells us he was the son of perdition or the son of destruction.

    Jesus said a good tree can not bear evil fruit. The fact that the last act Judas did on this earth was suicide (murder), shows he was not a good tree for he bore evil fruit.

    And we know all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire.
     
  9. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    It is singular in Greek, in Latin, In Hebrew, in Klingon, and in English.
    "We" only proves that John said "we". The plural you is "Ye" (Ya'll in the south) . But "thy" proves that Christ was addressing an individual.

    But say he was "speaking to the group", you still have the terribly difficult problem of the actual message of the parable which is, "quit sinning or go to hell". Is that what you tell unsaved people when you give them the gospel?

    lacy
     
    #9 Lacy Evans, Sep 29, 2006
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  10. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Huh? So if I sin right now and don't repent then I was never saved? Did I lose my salvation? You don't believe that do you Diggin?

    What a terrible doctrine. Is suicide the unforgivable sin? Scripture please? What kind of fruit was Peter bearing before the rooster crowed?

    Paul? David? Moses? Peter (Had he not missed and only got an ear.)? Murderers everyone.

    Me? You?

    Mercy for me but none for Judas?
     
    #10 Lacy Evans, Sep 29, 2006
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  11. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Gone to bed. God bless, Diggin (and all). Study well and be blessed.

    lacy
     
  12. Diggin in da Word

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    I will accept the thy being singular. that still does not mean Jesus was talking to John alone. He was speaking to one group, thereby the word could still be singular or plural.

    You say He was speaking to John alone, I say because of the fact that John said 'we' He was speaking to the group as a whole.

    If Jesus was speaking to John alone, then his discourse did not apply to the other eleven, or to any of us for all that matters.

    That would mean that the only reward to any man for giving water to followers of Christ would be if that man gove to John alone and not to anyone else. He could refuse water to you and God would not hold that against him.

    No, He spoke to the group of disciples as a whole.
     
  13. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    Yeah! And he would no longer be your nephew, would he? Oh, wait...
     
  14. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    Beyond that, in Mark 9:43, the "you" is 2nd person singular in the Greek.

    It's amazing how many confusing things are cleared right up when you look at the original languages.
     
  15. Hope of Glory

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    So, if you go out and speed just a tiny little bit tomorrow, or tell a little white lie, or get angry with us, and you fail to repent before you die, then you were never saved. Right?
     
  16. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    If he were speaking to a group, then the word would be second person plural, not singular. Singular means that it's an individual, not a bunch of single individuals.
     
  17. StefanM

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    I am confused here.

    Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:


    The KJV rightly used "thee" to render the 2nd person singular found in the Greek text.
     
  18. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    Why are you confused? It's second person singular in the Greek and in the KJV. It's not plural, no matter how badly some want it to be plural.
     
  19. Lacy Evans

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    I really think that he looked John right in the eye and if he was speaking to the group, it was indirectly. It wouldn't matter much since we see that when he does address a certain group (Ye) he says "Ye belong to me, and if you are good, I'll reward you."

    "Be good and get a reward" is not the Gospel that you give an unbeliever. It is the Gospel of the Kngdom and it is for the saved who already "belong to him"

    The only reason I bring up the "Thees, Thys and Thines" is to dispel the notion that Jesus was somehow preaching this (very very works oriented ) doctrine to some unsaved bystanders.

    (Compare the warnings spoken directly to his disciples in Matt 18:1-10)

    This is the context. Rank in the Kingdom, not salvation.
    In other words, "Hold on a minute! Without some humility, you boys might not even get into ths kingdom!"
    So whatever the chastisement for offending a little one was, it was worse than physical death. This is the exact thing we see in Hebrews 10:28, 29
    Note the use of "Thy" again. He is addressing the "Ye" and the "Thee's" that make up the "Ye". But here the audience is absolutely and only his disciples.

    Lacy
     
  20. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Hebrews 10:26-31
    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
     

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