Hell

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by AITB, May 20, 2002.

  1. AITB

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    How come the Bible prohibits me from being unkind to other people (Love is patient; love is kind; pray for those who persecute you; otherwise you are no better than the pagans, etc etc)

    ...but God can send those same people to Hell to be eternally tortured?

    I'm just asking... [​IMG]

    (Am I allowed to ask questions like this, here?)
     
  2. HankD

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    AITB asks...

    Because …our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
    Psalm 115:3

    HankD

    [ May 20, 2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  3. AITB

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    Good answer...but, in what way does it please Him?

    It doesn't please me to think about people being eternally tortured :confused:

    It makes me nervous that it pleases Him :(
     
  4. HankD

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    AITB says...

    Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    HankD
     
  5. Me2

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    Hello AItb,
    So Your Asking The Question Why Is God A Hypocrite For Saying To His Children, "Love You Enemies". While You Learn Of His Plans To Torture and Torment His Enemies For Eternity.

    Maybe The Question For Each Individual should be "Who Is God?" and What Are The Operating Characteristics Of His Spirit ?" and "What Is His Plan Of Salvation ?".

    From That Point You Might Find different or alternative Answers to the original question of thinking God Is Hypocritical....
     
  6. AITB

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    Thanks for your response, Me2 [​IMG]

    However, I don't think God is Hypocritical.

    What do you believe - that everyone will be saved? That unbelievers will be annihilated?

    I thought I saw that you don't believe in eternal torment, on that other thread...

    How do you manage not to believe in eternal torment? Do you not believe the Bible is true &/or inerrant?

    Btw it's not AItb but aitB technically [​IMG] : accepted in the Beloved - Eph 1:6b NKJV

    [ May 20, 2002, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: AITB ]
     
  7. post-it

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    This is similar to the same question I asked in the other thread. Does a command in the Bible constitue a sin if it is not followed. Then if it is violated and we sin is it a bad thing; since we are really forgiven anyway. I can see where arguments could be made for both sides. But I don't think that these commands are meant to be followed in all cases and that it is just a model to try to follow and that we may violate them (sin if that is the case) as we deem prudent.

    If a person breaks into my house, I will not be kind, loving, or forgiving. I will be killing him with a gun designed by God's perfect hand. I further think that God may or may not hold it against that person (he being saved or unsaved). In the final Judgment, he will be looking at what people did in some summary or other criteria of their life as some point of judgement reasoning.

    [ May 21, 2002, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]
     
  8. DHK

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    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    It is not so much God sending a person to Hell, as it is a person choosing Hell for Himself. If you reject Christ you choose Hell. That is the choice in life that you make. According to Titus 2:11, I believe that God gives every person the chance to trust Him.

    No matter what happens to me, Jesus taught that I can always be kind, loving, and forgiving. This was demonstrated in the life of Paul when he was thrown in prison unjustly in Acts 16. He and Silas sang praises to the Lord at midnight. Instead of having hateful revenge for the jailor they were able to lead him to Christ. When the prison doors were miraculously opened, what kind of rebellious damage could they have done by urging all the prisoners to escape? In spite of being treated harshly and unjustly they maintained an attitude of kindness and love.

    "If a person breaks into my house...I will be killing him." I don't own a gun, and don't intend to buy one. I've been in worse situations than in Canada or the U.S. I trust God for my protection, and if someone breaks into my house, God will give me grace to know what to do at that time. My life is in his hands. As long as I am in the center of God's will my life is immortal until God wants to take me home. In Rev.1:18, Jesus says, "I have the keys of hell and death." He will not allow me to die until it is my time. I trust Him to protect me and my family.
    When confronted by an enemy, is it possible to treat him with kindness, love, and forgiveness. Yes, and that is what Christ taught us to do. If we fail, and we all do, there is still forgiveness (1John 1:9). If God in His grace was able to reach down and forgive such a person as I, then should not I be able to forgive others also?
    DHK
     
  9. AITB

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    Originally posted by DHK:

    It is not so much God sending a person to Hell, as it is a person choosing Hell for Himself.


    But, I don't know of a single person who is consciously choosing hell...

    If someone genuinely doesn't believe it's real, or God could be that way, to send anyone there (say) - how are they 'choosing hell'?

    It's a bit of a trick isn't it? When someone gets there God says "Surprise! You didn't think I would but I would really send you there!" - or - "Surprise! It really does exist!"

    It sure would have been nice if he could have done that before they died, so they could have been aware they were choosing it...don't you think? :eek:

    If you reject Christ you choose Hell. That is the choice in life that you make. According to Titus 2:11, I believe that God gives every person the chance to trust Him.

    Is that really a chance, if they don't realize it's true?

    And God knows whether they realize it's true or not.

    He decides how convincing the 'evidence' is to people. He sets up the situation for them and knows how hard it will be for them to believe - or not.

    Actually, I'm Calvinist leaning so I think God chooses people for salvation or not. I don't buy the free-will stuff because I think the Bible teaches otherwise (No-one comes to me unless the Father draws him - John's gospel; Eph 1 - we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world - it's not of him who runs - Romans 9 etc etc)

    No matter what happens to me, Jesus taught that I can always be kind, loving, and forgiving.

    I'll Amen this loudly as long as it gives you hope rather than making you feel guilty when you fall short... [​IMG]

    This was demonstrated in the life of Paul when he was thrown in prison unjustly in Acts 16. He and Silas sang praises to the Lord at midnight. Instead of having hateful revenge for the jailor they were able to lead him to Christ. When the prison doors were miraculously opened, what kind of rebellious damage could they have done by urging all the prisoners to escape? In spite of being treated harshly and unjustly they maintained an attitude of kindness and love.

    Those passages are awesome testimonies to the power of God's spirit in us to give us joy and peace in the midst of difficult circumstances.

    I'm losing how this is relevant but I'll read on [​IMG]

    "If a person breaks into my house...I will be killing him." I don't own a gun, and don't intend to buy one. I've been in worse situations than in Canada or the U.S. I trust God for my protection, and if someone breaks into my house, God will give me grace to know what to do at that time. My life is in his hands. As long as I am in the center of God's will my life is immortal until God wants to take me home. In Rev.1:18, Jesus says, "I have the keys of hell and death." He will not allow me to die until it is my time. I trust Him to protect me and my family.

    I certainly respect that. I also hope it never happens to you [​IMG]

    When confronted by an enemy, is it possible to treat him with kindness, love, and forgiveness. Yes, and that is what Christ taught us to do. If we fail, and we all do, there is still forgiveness (1John 1:9). If God in His grace was able to reach down and forgive such a person as I, then should not I be able to forgive others also?

    Indeed...great application of Scripture!

    However, I was asking about all those people God doesn't forgive...

    But thanks for your comments!
     
  10. AITB

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    Originally posted by post-it:

    This is similar to the same question I asked in the other thread. Does a command in the Bible constitue a sin if it is not followed.


    Ok, I'm missing the similarity...can you elaborate? I am asking how come God gets to send people to hell...when I have to be nice to them???

    Then if it is violated and we sin is it a bad thing; since we are really forgiven anyway.

    That's a good question but I'd say it's obvious in the Bible that it is not ok to sin, as far as God's concerned, even if He does forgive that sin on the basis of Jesus' death for all sins, of those who believe.

    I can see where arguments could be made for both sides. But I don't think that these commands are meant to be followed in all cases and that it is just a model to try to follow and that we may violate them (sin if that is the case) as we deem prudent.

    I like that you are not legalistic about what is sin and what isn't.

    I think the Bible points us towards 'test all things; hold fast to what is good' which means that we rely on the Holy Spirit for moment-by-moment guidance, rather than going by a 'list of rules'. The 'list' would always lead us into trouble because we'd go as far as we could without breaking our rules but that sure doesn't mean our heart is right before God!!!

    So, we rely on the Spirit but we know what the Bible says about things that are definitely sin (that helps us not 'bend' the rules and not to claim God led us to do something egregious) and we listen to the counsel of wise people. And then we still aren't 100% sure else it wouldn't be a walk of faith, now, would it? [​IMG]

    If a person breaks into my house, I will not be kind, loving, or forgiving. I will be killing him with a gun designed by God's perfect hand. I further think that God may or may not hold it against that person (he being saved or unsaved). In the final Judgment, he will be looking at what people did in some summary or other criteria of their life as some point of judgement reasoning.

    I respect your choice in this just as I respect DHK saying he (?) would trust God to take care of him and his family.

    I say, do as you believe God leads you to do because He's the one you have to answer to...not me... [​IMG]

    No offense, but what did this have to do with my original question?

    Or was that your final paragraph, about God judging people based on His own criteria?

    [ May 21, 2002, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: AITB ]
     
  11. post-it

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    The entire content of my response in the last post is summed up again here in a shorter version.

    It doesn't prohibit anyone from being unkind. These are just models to attain toward.
    [/quote]
    ...but God can send those same people to Hell to be eternally tortured?[/quote]Final judgement may not send these people to the lake of fire. Otherwise, why judge sinners and the unbelievers at the white throne judgement according to what they have done in this life?
    On another note, these same people may include some believers that get to skate.

    [/QUOTE]
     
  12. AITB

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    Originally posted by post-it:

    The entire content of my response in the last post is summed up again here in a shorter version.


    Thanks and I apologize if I was being obtuse [​IMG]

    AITB: How come the Bible prohibits me from being unkind to other people (Love is patient; love is kind; pray for those who persecute you; otherwise you are no better than the pagans, etc etc)

    post-it: It doesn't prohibit anyone from being unkind. These are just models to attain toward.


    Ok, of course you're right. I said it in a deliberately provocative way, I expect, which was less accurate than what you wrote [​IMG]

    AITB:...but God can send those same people to Hell to be eternally tortured?

    post-it: Final judgement may not send these people to the lake of fire. Otherwise, why judge sinners and the unbelievers at the white throne judgement according to what they have done in this life?


    To demonstrate God's justice? To prove unequivocably that they're getting exactly what they deserve?

    If 'lake of fire' is at all metaphorical then there may be degrees of eternal punishment so worse sinners get worse. That's what my last pastor believes (Dr Erwin Lutzer)

    I don't think one can seriously argue that it's not a metaphor for something very painful btw...

    post-it: On another note, these same people may include some believers that get to skate

    Skate??? God is going to freeze over the lake of fire for them?

    This comment is waaaayyy too enigmatic for me! [​IMG]

    Can you elaborate? I am very interested in your 'hell' theories [​IMG]
     
  13. Star

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    Skate??? God is going to freeze over the lake of fire for them?

    Rev 15:2 Ever hear of the Sea of GLASS mingled with fire?

    I couldn't resist, but I can see in this what Post it is saying [​IMG]

    In Him Kim
     
  14. AITB

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    Oh yeah...the sea of glass! Duh...silly me...thanks Kim! [​IMG]
     
  15. Star

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    AITB

    Not a problem ;) Bring your skates, knowing God (through faith) is able to make you stand, skate, compete, and overcome through victory in Christ.

    In Him Kim ;)
     
  16. Me2

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    Hello AITB,
    Your Questions Regarding The Beliefs Of Eternal Torment Is One In Which Every Baptist Faces..the First Sign Of Concern Is The Idea Of Patiality Towards Our Viewpoints That We See or Imagine To Exist In Our Creator. After Following That Creator Whom We Believe To Have Our Best Interest In Mind.
    When We Were Initially Drawn To Our Saviour, It Was Through The Loving Message Of The Father. we Were Inticed into Believing That God Loves His Creation Unconditionally. That Through No Actions Of Ourselves We Couldnt Do Anything To Deserve His Love or Saving Activites towards Us. As If We Were A Child, We Were Only To Snuggle Into The Loving Arms Of Our God and Not Be Concerned With Anything Beyond Observing and interacting with Such A God in Our Day To Day Lives. Believing That All Of His Creation Is Infinitly Special To Him. That In Time, Even If It Took Eternity That We Would Come To Understand That Love and that special Bond Which To Us Seemed Infinite. Beyond Our Very Imaginations.
    Isnt It Written In Our Bible That This Special Bond Can Be Observed With A Simple Affirmation Of Just hearing "Daddy" in The Believer?.(Rom 8:15) we Continue To See That Not Only Does This God Loves Us As Individuals But That He Loves His Entire Creation. That His Desire Is To Have That Selfsame Relationship With Each and Every Individual That He Has Created.
    Isnt It Written In Revelation 4 :11
    Thou Art Worthy, O Lord To Receive Glory and Honor and Power:
    For Thou Hast Created ALL THINGS , And For THY PLEASURE
    they are and were created.

    Or Elsewhere:
    Col 1:16 For By Him were All Things created, that are in Heaven, and that are in the Earth, Visible and invisible, whether they be Thrones, or Dominions, or Principalities, or Powers: ALL THINGS were created by Him AND FOR HIM.
    And More.... That The Nature Of God Is Expressed In Love
    1 John 4:8 God is Love....
    Rom 13:10 Love Worketh No Ill,...Fulfillment of The Law
    John 3:16 God Love The World (of Created Beings)
    Matt 4:44 Loves His Enemies (also Luk 6:35)

    We Further Find That He Is Of One Mind
    Job 23:13 But He Is in One Mind, and Who can turn Him? and What His Soul Desireth, even that he Doeth.

    And Finally His Will:
    1 Tim 2:4 Who will Have All Men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth
    John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My Meat is to do the Will of Him That Sent Me, and To Finish His Work
    Eph 1:5 Having Predestinated Us Unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, According to the Good Pleasure of His Will

    To Underestimate The Love And Power Of The Creator To Fail In Fulfilling His Will Is To Add Partiality To His Pleasure and Purpose.

    We Start To Grow When We Learn That Further Choices Must Occur. That our Faith About Our God Must Be Proven To Become Personal. the Very Love Given freely Must Be Proven To Be Real To Us. That Assurance Through Experience.Our God Not Only Wanted Child Like Creatures But Also Mature in Understanding and experience.
    Now Is The Time Which Mature Choices Must Be Made. Do We Have A God Of Love or A God Who Will Punish and Torment Billions Of His Creation For Eternity. Do We Have A God Who Cares For and desires a Relationship with Each Of His Creatures, or A Rigid Ogre Of A Creator Bent On Allowing His Children to Be Reminded of Guilt Day after Day Forever.

    One Last Thought For The Moment...Our Beliefs Are An Actual Representation of Ourselves.
    Who Among Us Actually Wants our Child or Neighbor Or Fellowman To Suffer For Eternity In Infinite Degrees Of Pain and Torment?
     
  17. AITB

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    Cute! :D

    Thanks, Kim [​IMG]

    However...this thread is about, I want my other friends to come too! If I do, how come God doesn't? :confused: :(
     
  18. AITB

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    Exactly [​IMG]

    Thanks, Me2!
     
  19. Star

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    I'm wavering on the lake of fire and what it is, still dealing with other verses.

    God says He would be hells destruction, and in Revelation says Hells destruction is the lake of fire. I also know God Himself is a CONSUMING FIRE Himself. Theres many verses on this to consider none of which I have posted but its making me think alot concerning these things. Most consider this heretical but I don't think looking into Gods word concerning these things is wrong especially since in Christ I have been given the Spirit of Truth and my heart cannot seem to accept these things. Not that I cannot accept the bible but the "interpretation" so I'm just looking more closely concerning these things.

    Did you ever notice the fire of God be it in a bush or burning a man or melting, or being thrown in a furnance never hurt a thing? Ever wonder why one is saved yet by fire? Ever wonder why the bush is not burnt or men were not aware a fire was present was God said it was? I don't have time to write the verses out right now but I've posted these things many times before.

    Eternal... is that an attribute describing God as in divine, holy, eternal? Or is it speaking of a number of days? There is too much to look into when it comes to every perfect word, but I'm giving it a whirl [​IMG]

    In Him Kim
     
  20. AITB

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    Kim,

    I'm all for studying the Bible for oneself!

    "Test all things; hold fast what is good" (1 Thess 5:21) doesn't exclude "Bible interpretations derived by humans", does it? [​IMG]
     

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