Help me to clear my mind.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Dec 15, 2014.

  1. percho

    percho
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    Was the first man, Adam, created in the image of his creator, yet as a living soul; Created for the purpose of the Son of God, the Word, to be made flesh?

    If the answer is no; Why was the first man, Adam created?

    If the answer is yes; Why at the time of his creation was it necessary or would it become necessary, for the Word to be made flesh?
     
  2. Greektim

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    rephrase please.
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    adam was the first created human on earth, while Jesus was not created, but was God become human flesh!
     
  4. percho

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    Was the first man, Adam; Created for the purpose of the Son of God, the Word, to be made flesh?

    If the answer is no; Why was the first man, Adam created?

    If the answer is yes; Why at the time of his creation was it necessary or would it become necessary, for the Word to be made flesh?
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    No, as adam was NOT Jesus being created, but jesus was the second Adam, but he was uncreated, he is eternally God who became flesh and lived among us!
     
  6. percho

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    Could the Word have been made flesh, had not God created the first man, Adam in the flesh? Is this verse not the truth of the word of God?

    Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
     
  7. Van

    Van
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    When was the Word, the 2d Person of the Trinity, chosen to be the lamb of God? Before Adam was created? After Adam was created?

    Why was mankind created according to scripture. Please provide a reference.
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    man was created to bring glory to God, and God wanted to take pride in "showing off"

    And jesus was chosen to be the redeemer from before the foundation of the earth was laid, correct?
     
  9. percho

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    From/before the foundation of the world the Christ, as of a lamb without spot and without blemish was going to be slain/die/shed his blood. Before Adam was created. ----- Before Adam was created the blood of the lamb was foreordained for redemption.

    Redemption from what? Was there also before Adam was created something in existence which had the power of that from which redemption would be necessary.

    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 --- Did the devil and the sin of the devil, preexist Adam? What power did the devil have from which there would need of redemption? Heb. 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of (the) death, that is, the devil;

    How would the Christ be able to die except something be created, subject to the death, and to bring forth the death, of which the Christ could come in the image thereof subject also to the death and through the death destroy him who had the power of the death, that is the devil?

    Yeshua1 ? Would it bring glory to God to restore to life, that which the devil who had the power of death caused to suffer the death?

    What was the glory Jesus prayed to be glorified with in his prayer in John 17? Is it relative to this verse? 1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Was the glory given to him through resurrection? Knowing that Christ (being) raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed (Christ, as of a lamb.) should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Gal 3:19 --- What promise. The hope of eternal life. That the heir of God, inherits.
     
  10. Van

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    Now we have two independent bible students who say Jesus was chosen to be the lamb "from/before" the foundation of the world. What in the world does "from/before" mean? Absolutely nothing. Either Jesus was chosen before the foundation of the world, or was chosen from, since, after the foundation of the world.

    Was a scriptural reference provided for the reason God created mankind? Nope.

    This behavior is like reading a so-called news story based on anonymous sources. Might be true, or not. Who knows.

    So by the numbers:

    1) What was the purpose of the second person of the trinity becoming flesh? Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. John 1:29
    2) When was the Second Person of the Trinity chosen to be the Lamb of God? He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you. 1 Peter 1:20
    3) Why did God create mankind? A people for God's own possession. Everyone who is called by My name, and whom I have created for my glory. 1 Peter 2:9 & Isaiah 43:7.
     
    #10 Van, Dec 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2014
  11. percho

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    Before the foundation of the world exactly how was the second person of the Trinity going to become flesh? Exactly what flesh and blood was he going to come as? Heb2:14 Did he come into the world in the figure of Adam? Rom 5:14 Are those children in H2:14 the children of Adam?

    Was Adam not created as the vehicle of which the lamb of God, would come?

    Has Adam yet to bring glory to God? What about Cain? Of course the key in Isa 43:7 is,"called by my name".

    Who is that being said to in Isa 43; Is it not the very same people that this is said to in Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

    Is Isa 43 not speaking also as Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

    Have they been, "born again," as in Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


    BTW I am trying to have a dialog and am not trying to prove anything or be irritable about anything. Just trying to put scriptures together.
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    If I understand you correctly......the answer in part would be that Jesus was already working as mediator before creation and the fall could take place, or Adam and mankind would have been completely destroyed.

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

    Much of what takes place in redemptive history is to instruct the angels who never sinned...

    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
     
  13. Van

    Van
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    How hard, Percho, are you trying to have a conversation?
    1) Did I say the Second Person of the Trinity became flesh before the foundation of the world, or was foreknown as the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world?

    2) Did you ask whether Adam was created to be the vehicle of which the Lamb of God would come? Nope

    3) Did I say Adam or Cain brought glory to God? Nope. Who brings glory to God. Those that repent!

    Your OP questions have been answered.
     
  14. percho

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    I am saying that it appears to me that, something existed, prior to the creation of Adam that God was going to deal with by creating man in his own image though which the Son of God could be manifested to deal with the pre creation of Adam, problem, that existed.

    That problem of course being Satan the devil, that old serpent who deceived Eve taken from Adam, who, through his own lust, brought forth sin, which ended in the death, that was the power (works) of the devil.

    It appears to me that Adam did not fall from anything. Adam was a part of the creation subjected to futility, created carnal, sold under sin, meaning subject to the death the devil had the power thereof. The creation, from creation subjected to futility, in Hope.

    God by sending his sinless Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, could then destroy the death, and him who had the power of, the death, the devil and thus redeem those to whom the devil had brought the death through the deception of the woman taken from the man who through his own lust, sinned.

    Was that the plan of God before the foundation of the world?
     
  15. kyredneck

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    That's pretty deep thinking there percho, what's more I followed you! (or think that I did).

    But Adam did 'fall'.

    I'm of the opinion that God placed Adam in the garden in order to provoke Satan to jealousy, knowing what he would do, and then the story begins.
     
  16. percho

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    I believe you followed.

    he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; 1 John 3:8 YLT

    Did the sin of the devil pre-date the creation of Adam and is our redemption necessitated because of the works of the devil? Was Adam created relative to a purpose, in the fullness of time, for the Son of God to defeat the devil and redeem the sons of God?

    Also bearing in mind,

    Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44 KJV
     
  17. percho

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    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor. 15:50

    Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    At that very moment could they have inherited the kingdom of God?
    Would the following, have needed to take place, before inheriting the kingdom of God?

    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. 1 Cor. 15:51

    Would, redemption of the body, have to take place before they could have inherited the kingdom of God?
     
  18. kyredneck

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    Again, 'I'm of the opinion' the sin of the devil was first realized with the temptation of Eve. He intentionally cast a stumbling block out there so that the 'new comers' to the garden would incur the wrath of God.

    13 Thou wast in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was in thee; in the day that thou wast created they were prepared.
    14 Thou wast the anointed cherub that covereth: and I set thee, so that thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee. Ezek 28
     
    #18 kyredneck, Dec 19, 2014
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  19. quantumfaith

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    There are most likely a multitude of replies as to "why" God created, some of the most prominent supported by scripture being.

    1. For His Glory
    2. For service
    3. For stewardship
    4. Out of love

    I will go with Love, although all and any answer to "why" seems to ring a bit hollow as we consider God as being infinite, omnipotent, omniscient and possessing the attribute of asiety.
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    Yes, God created man as a living soul, in his INVISIBLE image just as the soul of man is invisible, but constitutes the moral and rational character of God or God made man "upright" able to rule over this world as God rules over creation.



    In other words did God decree sin and redemption prior to creating Adam, and thus created Adam in order to carry out those decrees.

    God is holy and holiness never can look on sin with approval. The existence of sin in this world is by way of necessary permission inseparable from the act of creating free will. The decree to create the exercise of Free will is impossible without also decreeing permission to sin as part of that freedom of exercise. However, in decreeing permission to sin also is the decree to be personally responsible for choice in that area of exercise.

    So God decreed permission to sin with full responsibility for sinning. Sovereignty and responsible choice is seen in the death of Christ:

    Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: - Acts 2:23

    God sovereingly determined the death of Christ but without personal culpability, as he determined it through permitting (rather than restraining - Psa. 76:10) the natural enmity of fallen man to responsibly choose to kill him.

    So the answer is No! God's motives were pure behind his decrees but His decrees were proactive in determining beforehand that sin and Satan would not overrule His good designs but would only promote the greater good.




    - Genesis 1:26-28 tell you why



    Because God determined that sin and Satan would not destroy His Good intent but would only further it to a greater level in the final analysis.
     

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