Help on OSAS subject and Salvation!!

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by TaliOrlando, Sep 6, 2006.

  1. TaliOrlando

    TaliOrlando
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    A question was to me today about OSAS and like always I would like to share it and get your opinions!!!

    I get the opportunity for the Glory to God to get asked many questions from young Christians and I love coming here and sharing them.

    If you believe Once saved always saved,

    If a Pastor who God has used to develop many churches for his Glory all of a sudden started to backslide and started to do things that he should have left in his past.

    In this case this Pastor was saved from Homosexualism, and this Pastor is now involved in sexual activities with a member of the church. With fellow Men who are new Christians and are also trying to change.

    Is he still saved or should he repent??? If he was before God would he be ok living in his sin or would he have to repent and turn away from his sin???
     
  2. J. Jump

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    The answer to this question is yes and yes, because it is actually two separate questions. Repentance is not an eternal salvation issue.

    If this man has believed at some point in his past that Jesus died on the cross of Calvary, as the Lamb of God and shed his blood on his behalf a sinner then he was saved at that very moment he believed, and eternal salvation became a non-issue as far as God is concerned. It is an issue that will NEVER come up again.

    The way he lives his life AFTER salvation is another matter all together. And if he wants to inherit the kingdom of God, or the kingdom of heaven as Matthew puts it (it's literally kingdom of the heavens) then he must confess his sin so that God is able to forgive him of that sin, based on the blood of Christ which is on the mercy seat of the heavenly tabernacle.
     
  3. TaliOrlando

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    So he must repent??
     
  4. billwald

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    There is no objective test for the state of "being saved" this side the grave so the problrm of OSAS is moot.
     
  5. J. Jump

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    Absolutely he must repent if he is saved. If he is not saved, he must be saved and repentance will come after salvation. Hope that clarifies.
     
  6. TaliOrlando

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    Sure does!!!:thumbs: I just wonder why some say that he doesnt because once he is saved always he is saved. I was just a little confused you know..
     
  7. J. Jump

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    There are some that teach that once a person is saved that are forgiven off ALL their sins past, present and future at the moment of salvation. But that goes against clear teaching of Scripture.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    5 Point Calvinists would say "he never was saved"
    4 point Calvinists would say "devils go straight to heaven as devils why not this guy too? Can't be lost"

    Arminians would ADMIT that he lost his salvation and they would say "QUITE right he was cast out for his unbelief - but God is able to graft Him INTO the vine of Christ AGAIN IF he does not CONTINUE in his unbelief" Romans 11.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. J. Jump

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    Oh Bob here you go again :) Except Romans 11 isn't speaking of eternal salvation. That's not the context. Romans 11 is talking about belief and unbelief at the moment of salvation.

    Eternal salvation is a one-time act not a linear process.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Being cast out of the vine of Christ in Romans 11 and in John 15 means "being dried up tossed out and burned in the fire" - it DOES NOT mean "going to heaven and being at peace with God".

    NEVER do we find "Having been cast out of the vine of Christ we HAVE PEACE with God".

    NEVER do we find "those who are saved have NO PEACE with God but rather are cast out of the vine of Christ and burned up".

    Simply accepting the word of God in this case - clears up the matter.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. J. Jump

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    That was my whole point. And if you accept the Word of God then you would see that the context is not support what you are trying to say.

    Absolutely. You can not go back to my posts in this theard, or any other thread for that matter, and find that I said anything different. When you are walking in disobedience there is no peace with God, but that doesn't mean you become unsaved. The Bible just doesn't support that notion.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    In Romans 11 Paul “shows” the fall of the Jews from the Vine – of Christ (I am the Vine – you are the Branches) but also shows that God continues to love them and seek them EVEN though they are out of His will and in rebellion – and lost. For outside of Christ there is truly “no salvation”. But “the branches are cast into the fire” in the ultimate sense – if they ‘continue in unbelief”.

    “I am speaking to YOU who are gentiles” hmm “How telling” for those who had imagined that this chapter was “only written to Jews” since it deals with the danger of being taken out of the vine of Christ,

    Rom 11
    13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.


    Paul is looking to "motivate" the lost “individuals” among the Jews showing his own Individual willingness to trade places. He does not conclude that God will irresistible force them to be saved. Instead of using God's power to alter the will as the "means" to save them, God uses the appeal to CHOICE,
    imperfect "motives" - the APPEAL is made and the hope is that some will take it.


    Notice “if THEIR rejection” is “reconciliation of the World” – Paul again shows that he references the Jews “as a group” failing and then addresses the Christian church “The WORLD” as being grafted into the vine of Christ through the Gospel as each person accepts the gift of eternal life – faith in Christ and stands in that faith – that “Belief” as Paul calls it in Romans 11.


    Rom 11

    15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
    16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17But [b]if some of the branches were broken off[/b], and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

    18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.


    Clearly this is individuals rejected (as Paul was certainly NOT rejected though a Jew). And it is INDIVIDUAL Gentiles accepted (as ALL pagans were NOT considered Saints by Paul in any sense at all). There are all being grafted “into” the vine of Christ – and as such form “ the church”. They come in based on faith and they remain based on faith.

    Just stating the “obvious” here but some have been avoiding this points in desperate attempts to spare the OSAS assumptions that are exposed by Romans 11 while others reject the idea of the ONE Gospel active in the church of God in all ages – grafting all the saints into the SAME vine of Christ.

    Rom 11:17-23 - WE are grafted in to the place from which some of those who rebelled fell (as we note in Romans 11). WE are in the same place as THEY - under the ONE Gospel. (Gal 1:6)

    Romans 11 points out that we are grafted into the SAME place from which the Jews fell AND that God wants to put the Jews BACK into the place from which they fell.

    Not only is this a denial of OSAS it is also a denial that once you fall you can not be re-instated.


    Rom 11
    18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
    19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
    20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

    22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


    As you read the details in the text of Romans 11:20 why do you think Paul says "to fear"??

    20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

    Why does Paul say in Rom 11:21 "Neither will he spare you" who is the "you" and what is the "you" supposed to take away from that instruction?

    When Paul says "if you continue in His kindness" is "YOU" a saved person?

    When Paul says "otherwise YOU will be cut off" in vs 22 is being "cut off" a saving experience of the saints that they will cary with them into heaven?

    In vs 23 is "continuing in unbelief" a sign or reason for them "being cut off" if so - then what were they doing BEFORE they were "cut off for unbelief"? What was their start? believing? OR were they initially brought in "as unbelievers"??

    Is "graft them in again" a reference to a saving relationship with Christ being restored - or some more frivolous idea?

    Notice the very bright light shining in Romans 11 on the subject of salvation gained vs lost.


    Rom 11:
    19You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
    20Quite right, [b
    ]they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.


    They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

    Rom 11:
    22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    [/quote]


    They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.


    Rom11:
    23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
    [/quote]

    ------------------------------------------

    Being cast out of the vine of Christ in Romans 11 and in John 15 means "being dried up tossed out and burned in the fire" - it DOES NOT mean "going to heaven and being at peace with God".

    NEVER do we find "Having been cast out of the vine of Christ we HAVE PEACE with God".

    NEVER do we find "those who are saved have NO PEACE with God but rather are cast out of the vine of Christ and burned up".

    Simply accepting the word of God in this case - clears up the matter.

    In Christ,

    Bob


     
  13. J. Jump

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    [qutoe]Simply accepting the word of God in this case - clears up the matter.[/quote]

    Bob this statement is correct and it will be correct as many times as you type it in, but you can cut and paste your nice little Christmas looking answer all day long, but that doesn't make it so.

    The context of the Scripture is not eternal salvation, so as long as you continue to try and tie eternal salvation into that passage God's Word is not being allowed to say what the case is and the waters will stay muddied.

    Being cut off from the vine doesn't have anything to do with eternal salvation. The fact that he was speaking to Gentiles is not a surprise to anyone, or shouldn't be nor does it make it prove your point.

    Paul's ministry was to the Gentiles. And his ministry was that the Gentiles could be a part of the same offer that was being delivered to Israel at the time of Christ, which was ONLY open to the Jews at that time. And that offer was not eternal salvation, but was the kingdom.

    This has nothing to do with eternal salvation and everything to do with the kingdom. The context is the coming kingdom and not eternal salvation. Hope that clears that up :)
     
  14. Inquiring Mind

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    Bob sure likes his large color comments doesn't he? A little vain eh?
     
  15. J. Jump

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    I think he just really likes the Christmas holiday season :) Just joshing with ya Bob :thumbs:
     
  16. Inquiring Mind

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    If faith alone is all we need, then why does Paul put love above faith?

    1 Cor 13:2

    Faith that moves mountains? That's some powerful faith, but if you don't have love, you are nothing!!!

    1 Cor. 13:13

    If faith alone is all we need, why does Paul again say that love is greater than faith?
     
  17. J. Jump

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    Don't really understand your question as Paul is dealing with believers that are already saved, so he's not speaking of the eternal saving faith.

    If you don't have the faith that saves you aren't going to have the love that Paul talks about, because that kind of love only comes from God.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Since the model for some here seems to be that we can ignore the text of Romans 11 IF there is color used in the text --- (as far thinking as that approach is)

    Here the points are again FROM PAUL - as HE makes the case that "GOD IS ABLE to GRAFT them IN AGAIN IF they do not CONTINUE in UNBELIEF".

    Truly devastating to those clinging to the man-made-tradition of OSAS over the Word of God.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    In Romans 11 Paul “shows” the fall of the Jews from the Vine – of Christ (I am the Vine – you are the Branches) but also shows that God continues to love them and seek them EVEN though they are out of His will and in rebellion – and lost. For outside of Christ there is truly “no salvation”. But “the branches are cast into the fire” in the ultimate sense – if they ‘continue in unbelief”.

    “I am speaking to YOU who are gentiles” hmm “How telling” for those who had imagined that this chapter was “only written to Jews” since it deals with the danger of being taken out of the vine of Christ,


    Rom 11
    13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.


    Paul is looking to "motivate" the lost “individuals” among the Jews showing his own Individual willingness to trade places. He does not conclude that God will irresistible force them to be saved. Instead of using God's power to alter the will as the "means" to save them, God uses the appeal to CHOICE,
    imperfect "motives" - the APPEAL is made and the hope is that some will take it.


    Notice “if THEIR rejection” is “reconciliation of the World” – Paul again shows that he references the Jews “as a group” failing and then addresses the Christian church “The WORLD” as being grafted into the vine of Christ through the Gospel as each person accepts the gift of eternal life – faith in Christ and stands in that faith – that “Belief” as Paul calls it in Romans 11.


    Rom 11

    15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
    16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17But [b]if some of the branches were broken off[/b], and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

    18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.


    Clearly this is individuals rejected (as Paul was certainly NOT rejected though a Jew). And it is INDIVIDUAL Gentiles accepted (as ALL pagans were NOT considered Saints by Paul in any sense at all). There are all being grafted “into” the vine of Christ – and as such form “ the church”. They come in based on faith and they remain based on faith.

    Just stating the “obvious” here but some have been avoiding this points in desperate attempts to spare the OSAS assumptions that are exposed by Romans 11 while others reject the idea of the ONE Gospel active in the church of God in all ages – grafting all the saints into the SAME vine of Christ.

    Rom 11:17-23 - WE are grafted in to the place from which some of those who rebelled fell (as we note in Romans 11). WE are in the same place as THEY - under the ONE Gospel. (Gal 1:6)

    Romans 11 points out that we are grafted into the SAME place from which the Jews fell AND that God wants to put the Jews BACK into the place from which they fell.

    Not only is this a denial of OSAS it is also a denial that once you fall you can not be re-instated.


    Rom 11
    18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
    19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
    20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

    22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


    As you read the details in the text of Romans 11:20 why do you think Paul says "to fear"??

    20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

    Why does Paul say in Rom 11:21 "Neither will he spare you" who is the "you" and what is the "you" supposed to take away from that instruction?

    When Paul says "if you continue in His kindness" is "YOU" a saved person?

    When Paul says "otherwise YOU will be cut off" in vs 22 is being "cut off" a saving experience of the saints that they will cary with them into heaven?

    In vs 23 is "continuing in unbelief" a sign or reason for them "being cut off" if so - then what were they doing BEFORE they were "cut off for unbelief"? What was their start? believing? OR were they initially brought in "as unbelievers"??

    Is "graft them in again" a reference to a saving relationship with Christ being restored - or some more frivolous idea?

    Notice the very bright light shining in Romans 11 on the subject of salvation gained vs lost.


    Rom 11:
    19You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
    20Quite right, [b
    ]they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.


    They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

    Rom 11:
    22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    [/quote]


    They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.


    Rom11:
    23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    I think a shorter version of Romans 11 would help a few here who don't like to read a lot of Bible text in a single post --

    So I will offer a shorter version ---

    Rom 11:
    19You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
    20Quite right, [b]they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.


    They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

    Rom 11:
    22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    [/quote]


    They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.


    Rom11:
    23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
     
  20. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    Well, if you assume that being cut off and grafted back in has to do with your everlasting salvation, I can see where you think that your spiritual salvation is not secure. Thankfully, it's laid out in Scriptures in such a way that we can see that it's referring to something other than our spiritual salvation, whice we are told concisely and articulately is secure and cannot be lost or forfeited.

    Unless there are errors in Scripture, in which case the Scriptures are pretty worthless.
     

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