Here is another one...

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Daniel David, Mar 17, 2003.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    God wants (but lacks the ability or power) to save everyone equally.

    Here is a hypothetical example based on arminian theology.

    What if one person does not want another person to be saved?

    What if Person A does not want Person B to be saved? Person B wants to be saved. Person A kills Person B before Person B can believe.

    So, Person A actually triumps over God and Person B.
     
  2. AITB

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    Whereas in Calvinism God is content to see B go to hell so A is all set...is that how the theology goes? ;)

    Helen/AITB
     
  3. William C

    William C
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    Never once has an Arminian on this board said that God wants to save everyone but lacks the ability or the power to save everyone. That is a complete and total misapplication of our beliefs; therefore the rest of you argument doesn't merit a response.
     
  4. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Bill, you don't have to explicitly say it. It isn't that hard to understand that theology.
     
  5. William C

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    We haven't said it because we don't believe it.

    What if I said, "Calvinists believe that God doesn't want Christians to evagelize because the elect will be effectually called by the Holy Spirit anyway."

    Yes, your doctrine if taken to its logically conclusion could lead one to believe that, but is it true of Calvinists on this board? Of course not, which is why I don't make that accusation. So, please refrain from these types of tactics of misrepresentation lest you once again receive the wrath of Yelsew's misrepresentation of your system. [​IMG]
     
  6. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Bill, I wouldn't admit it either.

    Also, if you knew Calvinism the way you say you do, you would know that God ordained not only people, but the means.

    The Arminian only says that God hopes people are saved. That is all he can do. He hopes. You do not believe that he is over the "free will" of man.
     
  7. Yelsew

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    But that theology is yours Preach, not Armenius'.
     
  8. Frogman

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    Can anyone deny the truthfulness of this? Is it not true that man is prejudiced? God is not. This is why he doesn't rely on me, because ultimately the salvation of those I don't preach or witness to is dependent upon me or at the very least my obedience. Then salvation is not the gift of God but would become the gift of "bro.dallas" and to whoever he would dispense the good news. Don't we already have this system and aren't we up to our ears in this error?

    Bro.Dallas
     
  9. William C

    William C
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    Bill, I wouldn't admit it either.

    Also, if you knew Calvinism the way you say you do, you would know that God ordained not only people, but the means.
    </font>[/QUOTE]-sigh- Preach, did you even read my post??????????????

    Let me quote a phrase from it again: Of course not, which is why I don't make that accusation.

    I know what Calvinist's believe, I debated it for almost 9 years and have read countless books on the subject. I said "What if I" were to make an argument that is untrue about Calvinism. You wouldn't like it, obviously. So, don't do it to us. We don't believe that God is unable or without the power to save everyone, so your straw man argument doesn't apply to us, it applies to that imaginary scarecrow that you've created in your mind, maybe he can answer your argument. :D

    No, that's not "all he can do." And no we don't believe that God is subject to man's "free will." That's must be what you scarecrow believes, not us.

    Yes he does desire for all to be saved and He uses the apostles, the scripture, life circumstances, envy, and a host of other means to provoke the will of man.
     
  10. Yelsew

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    I don't think God would view person A's sin as a triumph or a trump, whichever you meant. Sin is sin and the wage for sin is death! Who wins now? God is eternal!
     
  11. npetreley

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    Well, that doesn't leave much, Mr. Bill. Maybe I missed one, but I can't think of any logical alternatives to the following:

    1. God saves everyone.
    2. God desires to save everyone but lacks the ability to carry it out.
    3. God desires to save everyone, but in some cases He elevates man's desire NOT to be saved above His own desire that they be saved.
    4. God desires to save everyone but has His own reasons for deliberately not doing so.
    5. God doesn't desire to save everyone.
     
  12. William C

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    God desires everyone to be saved, but it is also clear in scipture that everyone must "consider the cost" or make the choice to follow Christ. Therefore, God desires everyone to come to repentance, but has sovereingly chosen to give man the freedom of the will to make that choice for himself when confronted with the call of the HS and the gospel.

    In short God desires to save all by grace through faith but many are unwilling. According to scripture their unwillingness is the only thing that is keeping them from being saved, not God's unwillingness as Calvinism's logically concludes.
     
  13. romanbear

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    Post edited for personal attacks and for contributing nothing to the topic besides that. Please do not start this again Romanbear. We have had a few good weeks. Let's not return to the old days.

    [ March 18, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    Brother Bill,

    Our brother said, 'Also, if you knew Calvinism the way you say you do, you would know that God ordained not only people, but the means.'

    Bill, try to learn more quickly. What he means is that Augustinian-Calvinism's Divine puppetry started with Adam and Eve.

    On the contrary, I think of you Bill as one who has learned of the Lord via the Spirit's instruction rather than that of human cleverness.
     
  15. William C

    William C
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    [​IMG]

    Ok, Ray, I pay closer attention next time. I really thought all of those books I read by the early Purtains, and other Calvinists like Spoul, MacArthur, Piper, Packer, Horton, Hodge, Gill, Pink, Nettles, and the rest gave me some kind of grasp, but I guess I missed the Adam and Eve divine puppetry chapter. :D
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    Many Christians have thought that since His atonement covers everyone's sins, [ I John 2:2] why does He not save everyone. Almighty God has limited His overwhelming power in not autocratrically saving everyone for a reason. Because He has given everyone an unfettered human will, it becomes the creatures responsibility to believe or not to trust in Christ as Savior. Could He have saved everyone? Yes. But it was not within His will or as some prefer to say His sovereign plan for the ages. Men and women will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment [Rev. 20] on how they used their responsibility toward Him. If God chose some and damned others, at will, we could readily say that He subverted their thinking and will, in fact, their entire being by sovereignly electing them to Heaven and Hell.
     
  17. npetreley

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    You have a habit of claiming scripture says things without actually providing any chapters and verses. (Names entered into the book of life according to deeds ring a bell?) So I'll follow suit and point out without reference that you are misrepresenting the above scripture.

    That would be # 3. God desires to save everyone, but in some cases He elevates man's desire NOT to be saved above His own desire that they be saved.

    Odd that God would override man's will in some cases but not in others. I guess He doesn't like some people as much as others, which creates the same problem for arminianism as arminians like to say exists for calvinism.
     
  18. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Originally posted by Brother Bill:

    'God desires everyone to be saved, but it is also clear in Scipture that everyone must "consider the cost" or make the choice to follow Christ.'

    Jesus said in Luke 9:23 'If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.'

    Funny, I would have thought God would have written, 'The elect will come after Me, and let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.'

    Actually, He said, 'IF any man will come . . . ' because they are not pre-programmed to come.

    The word picture, If most strongly suggests that the sinner can go one way or the other. He can believe and follow Christ, or turn from Him and remain in his sins.

    Surely human beings have a free will because of the fourth word in Jesus statement. The word is, of course, ' . . . will.' Jesus words are quite the opposite of 'the bondage of the will' or 'the dead corpse theory' surfaced by the great grandchildren of John Calvin.
     
  19. William C

    William C
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    Nick,

    God overrides man's will only when he is accomplishing his Sovereign will not when he is seeking to "control" the happenings of his premissive will as you seem to assert. You don't seem to be able to descern the difference between what God Sovereignly wills and what he premissively desires.

    Paul's apostleship was apart of God's sovereign will, he can do whatever He wants with his lumps of clay. He chose Paul for a noble purpose despite his unwillingness just as he did Jonah in the OT, but that does not mean he forced Ninevah to believe, which in the end they didn't. Why would God ordain the means to their being saved and not ordain the ends? Could it be that God wanted them to make that choice for themselves? Naw, that would make too much sense, let's complicated it.

    BTW, here is the passage:
    "What a privilege it would be to have a share in the Kingdom of God!" 16 Jesus replied with this illustration: "A man prepared a great feast and sent out many invitations. 17 When all was ready, he sent his servant around to notify the guests that it was time for them to come. 18 But they all began making excuses. One said he had just bought a field and wanted to inspect it, so he asked to be excused. 19 Another said he had just bought five pair of oxen and wanted to try them out. 20 Another had just been married, so he said he couldn't come. 21 "The servant returned and told his master what they had said. His master was angry and said, 'Go quickly into the streets and alleys of the city and invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind.' 22 After the servant had done this, he reported, 'There is still room for more.' 23 So his master said, 'Go out into the country lanes and behind the hedges and urge anyone you find to come, so that the house will be full. 24 For none of those I invited first will get even the smallest taste of what I had prepared for them.'" 25 Great crowds were following Jesus. He turned around and said to them, 26 "If you want to be my follower you must love me more than your own father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters – yes, more than your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. 27 And you cannot be my disciple if you do not carry your own cross and follow me. 28 "But don't begin until you count the cost. For who would begin construction of a building without first getting estimates and then checking to see if there is enough money to pay the bills? 29 Otherwise, you might complete only the foundation before running out of funds. And then how everyone would laugh at you! 30 They would say, 'There's the person who started that building and ran out of money before it was finished!' 31 "Or what king would ever dream of going to war without first sitting down with his counselors and discussing whether his army of ten thousand is strong enough to defeat the twenty thousand soldiers who are marching against him? 32 If he is not able, then while the enemy is still far away, he will send a delegation to discuss terms of peace. 33 So no one can become my disciple without giving up everything for me.
     
  20. npetreley

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    Given that you phrase it as what God "permissively desires", you don't even seem to understand what other people are talking about when they use the term God's "permissive will".

    Yes, anything He wants except, according to most arminians, violate their free will decision to go to hell (with, of course, some exceptions, which arminians gloss over). That's where arminians draw the line for God, excpecting Him to obey.

    If we were really talking about salvation, then it sounds like they would have been better off if God forced them to believe. But it wasn't about believing, it was about repentance. And, yes, their repentance was short-lived. There's a lesson in there somewhere arminians don't want to acknowledge.

    Why should we complicate it further? You've already complicated it by turning it into a question of salvation when the Bible says it was a matter of repentance and avoiding destruction -- and even then, it was part of a MUCH BIGGER point about how God's mercy applies to people other than the Jews, and the sovereignty of God (Jonah couldn't decide NOT to preach to the Ninevites).

    Excellent. And what's the phrase Jesus keeps repeating? "cannot become my disciple", "no one can become my disciple", etc.

    The primary definition of "disciple" is...

    1 : one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another: as a : one of the twelve in the inner circle of Christ's followers according to the Gospel accounts b : a convinced adherent of a school or individual

    This is not about who can be saved and who cannot. Not all are given the task or gift to spread the doctrines of Christianity. If the above were true of all who are saved, then only those who carry their cross would be saved, yet there are obviously those who are saved but do not carry their cross even regarding the things they are assigned to do:

    1 Corinthians 3:15
    If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

    Regardless, even though it is referring to the cost of being a disciple and not necessarily the cost of being saved, it seems to me to be primarily, though not exclusively, exhortation. (It is not exclusive because Jesus is talking to those who will not be disciples, as well.) Assume for a moment you were standing before a dozen people who you knew were going to be your disciples. Wouldn't you warn them, in as strong a way as possible, about the cost? "If you can't hack it, get out now" is an expression people still use for those they know aren't going to choose to get out. The expression is, in itself, a method of preparing them for the trials that lay ahead.
     

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