Here's Something That Will Make You Think!!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Aug 27, 2006.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    #1 skypair, Aug 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 27, 2006
  2. Baptist Believer

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    Wow! Almost everyone in the room were unbelievers, even the preacher!

    Because Matthew 24 (which they were obviously referencing) actually teaches that those who trust God will remain (like Noah and his family), and those who do not trust will be taken (like those swept away and drowned in the flood).

    Yes, I know that contradicts a lot of popular teaching on the rapture, but I have to go with what Jesus actually taught instead of what popular preachers and authors teach:

    Matthew 24

    37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
    38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
    39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
    40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
    41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
    42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming."
     
  3. Not_hard_to_find

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    Right. It contradicts everything I've been taught. Please continue with additional scripture to support your interpretation for clarification of the position you hold. Thanks!
     
  4. Baptist Believer

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    I find it kind of interesting that the people who were "left behind" were members of the casually-dressed group. The white-shirt-and-tie-brigade was taken, without exception.
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

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    God was probably judging their dispensationalist heresy.:smilewinkgrin:

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  6. Ed Edwards

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    Matthew 24:37b (source not listed):
    ... like the days of Noah ...

    Baptist Believer: //Because Matthew 24 (which they were obviously referencing) actually teaches that those who trust God will remain (like Noah and his family), and those who do not trust will be taken (like those swept away and drowned in the flood).//

    Your statement shows you have no idea of the meaning of LIKE
    in the scripture. Sorry, like does NOT allow one to
    MISS THE MARK and say the good guys are left & the
    bad guys taken. Likewise I would miss the mark if
    I said some guy named 'Noah' would have to get into
    an ark before the Lord can come back.

    Consider these three pretribulation rapture passages:
    -----------------------------------------------

    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues <== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    The time line according to Matthew 24
    (Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
    Mark 13, Luke 21):

    0. church age continues <== you are here!
    Matthew 24:4-15

    1. rapture/resurrection event
    Matthew 24:31-44

    2. Tribulation time
    Matthew 24:21-28

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    Matthew 24:29-30)

    Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    The time line according to Revelation:

    0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
    2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
    5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

    The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

    0. church age continues <== you are here!
    (implied, until the falling away)

    1. rapture/resurrection
    v.1 - gathering together unto him
    v.3 - falling away

    2. Tribulation time
    (time of the man of sin)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    v.8

    Not mentioned:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
    before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
    So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
    in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
    as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.

    -----------------------------------------------
     
  7. skypair

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    Hope you enjoyed the clip anyway :tongue3:

    Actually, I half agree with you. I see that Mt 24:22 could be referring to 1) the church disappearing pretrib or 2) the "tares" being "gathered" postrib. Either could be the case as these fall under the "signs" the end times saints were to look for and they are only 7 years apart!

    skypair
     
  8. Baptist Believer

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    It’s the New American Standard Translation… but all the translations have the same meaning.

    The English word “like” is not in the scripture. The translators selected the word “like” to accurately convey the meaning of the original Greek.

    In English, the word (in this context) means:

    having the same characteristics or qualities as; similar to; in the manner of; in the same way or to the same degree as

    Therefore, Jesus is giving a comparison… using the familiar story of Noah to illustrate what He is teaching.

    Now let’s look at the comparison Jesus made:

    Days of Noah……………………………......………………….Coming of the Son of Man

    eating and drinking,……………………………………....…..two men in the field (v.40)
    marrying and given in marriage (v.38)……………...two women grinding at the mill (v.41)

    Noah entered the ark (v.38)………………………..……..one will be left (verses 40 and 41)

    the flood took them all away (v.39)……………………one will be taken (verses 40 and 41)

    they did not understand (v.39)………………..….……..Therefore be on the alert, for you do not
    so will the coming of the Son of Man be (v.39)….know which day your Lord is coming (v.42)


    It is a very clear parallel.


    So Noah’s flood drowned the “good guys," but Noah and his family (who are apparently the “bad guys”) remained?

    Nope.

    That contradicts Genesis. Obviously, you can’t accurately interpret Matthew 24 to support a rapture that takes the “good guys” and leaves the “bad.” Even if your understanding of a pre-tribulation rapture is true, then you can’t use Matthew 24 as a source for that belief, because it does not support it.
     
    #8 Baptist Believer, Aug 28, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2006
  9. webdog

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    Exactly...the meaning is accurate with "like".

    The heretical teaching the lost will be raptured and the saved left behind for God's wrath needs to be flushed down the toilet.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    Baptist Believer: //The English word “like” is not in the scripture. The translators selected the word “like” to accurately convey the meaning of the original Greek.//

    Mat 24:37 (KJV1769 with Strong's numbers):
    But1161 as5618 the3588 days2250
    of Noah3575 were, so3779 shall also2532
    the3588 coming3952 of the3588 Son5207
    of man444 be.

    Strongs: G3779
    οὕτω
    houtō
    hoo'-to
    Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
    From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes
    or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner,
    as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more,
    on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.


    Hebrew word #3779 is correctly translated
    'so' in the KJV and 'like' in the NAS. But that
    does not give one liberty to make ALL COMARISONS.
    For example one cannot say that only 8 were
    'saved' by being yanked OFF the world in Noah's
    day so only 8 will be 'saved' by being
    raptured/resurrected from the earth.
     
  11. Baptist Believer

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    Let's boil this down...

    In the days of Noah, the wicked were "taken" by the flood, and the righteous (Noah and his family) remained.

    Jesus said that the coming of the Son of Man would happen in the same way... The wicked would be taken away and the righteous would be left.

    That's the plain teaching of this passage. Of course, what is means is a matter of dispute.

    To be clear, I don't think this passage is talking about the "rapture" of the church mentioned in other places. The rapture will occur at the end of the age when Jesus returns and makes all things new. Those who are asleep in Christ, from all ages of history, will rise to meet Him in the air as He descends as the conquering King, and those who are still alive in that day will also be raised to meet Him in the clouds and then descend again upon the earth to participate in the work of the Kingdom.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    Baptist Believer: //Let's boil this down...

    In the days of Noah, the wicked were "taken" by the flood, and the righteous (Noah and his family) remained.//

    I respectfully disagree. Noah and his family were 'taken'
    by the ark off the face of the earth; the wicked were
    left behind to drown. So it shall be in the pretribulation
    rapture: the righteous (in Christ) will be taken off the
    face of the earth; the wicked shall be left behind.

    Ah, I think I see a common problem:

    Mat 24:38 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For as in the dayes that were before the Flood,
    they were eating, and drinking, marrying, and giuing in mariage, vntill the day that Noe entred into the Arke,
    Mat 24:39 And knew not vntill the Flood came,
    and tooke them all away: so shall also the comming
    of the Sonne of man be.

    The referrant for 'them' in verse 39 is 'Noe' in
    verse 38. So it was Noah & his family that were
    taken; the evil people were LEFT BEHIND.
     
  13. tinytim

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    maybe I have a warped sense of humor, but I chuckled when I saw the one girl get up and look under the seats as if everyone was hiding under their seats....

    That's funny...
     
  14. LeBuick

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    She was funny but I like the guy in the forefront who realized he was left behind. He was probably planning to walk the isle today but the preacher went too long...

    What happen to two in the filed, one will go and the other will not?

    I figured there will be two in the pew, one will go and the other will wonder where they went.
     
  15. Mel Miller

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    Makes You Think

    _____________________________________________________________

    Baptist Believer,

    I heartily agree with you as to identifying the wicked as being "taken"!
    But those who suddenly cry out for mercy, and are "kept from death",
    must refer to those among "the tribes of earth who mourn and keep praying to escape and to stand before the Son of Man" after seeing the Son of Man appearing with ALL the Saints. Matt.24:30-31; Luke 21:36.

    Therefore, while the Rapture will have just occurred, those "left behind" must be the ones who will remain in their mortal bodies to populate the Kingdom and produce countless "sheep" at the End of the Millennium who will "inherit the kingdom on earth FOREVER"! Rev.21:24-26.

    Pre-Tribbers fail to recognize that those who "mourn" continue to beg
    during the HOUR OF TRIAL "coming on all the inhabitants on all the face of all the earth" when Christ appears. Rev.3:10-11; Luke 21:34-35. That is why Jesus urges those who see Him appear in glory to "NOT TURN BACK" as did Lot's wife; but to be "willing to die in order to be preserved from
    death"! Only one other time in the NT do we find the word preserve (to be kept alive) used ... when Stephen referred to Moses being kept alive in the basket on the River Nile. Luke 17:30-33; Acts 7:19.

    The HOUR when men "mourn and keep begging to escape", after seeing the Son of Man appear and after "He gathers His Elect from the earth and sends the Angels (with the third sounding of the Last Trump) to gather His elect out of the 4 winds from all the extremities of the heavens unto Himself" (Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1), CONSTITUTES the HOUR of Trial during which those "kept alive" will keep on "mourning and begging in order to prevail and to stand before the Son of Man". Lk.21:36.

    From this revelation by Jesus we understand how a third of Israel will be "kept alive" (Zech.13:8-9) and that out of the 12 Tribes descended from Ishmael there will emerge (over a period of 1000 years) the untold millions who will either become the "sheep nations" that inherit the eternal kingdom on earth or else become the "goat nations" who will finally be "cast into Hell" based on their treatment of the sheep. Matt. 25:32-46.

    Even the popular Pre-Trib view (up until about 1970), that the one taken refers to the Rapture was rejected and displaced by the wicked "taken in judgment"! They changed from the wicked being LEFT to the righteous being LEFT since it is the only contextual meaning that fits the HOUR of Trial, i.e., that the ones "taken" are destined (not predestined) to Hell and the ones "left" are kept alive to populate the Kingdom.

    Our Pre-Trib friends failed to realize that ALL the saints will have already been raptured and therefore those LEFT can only apply to those who "mourn and keep begging to be kept alive and to be able to escape all the things happening THAT DAY"!! Matt.24:27-30; Rev.1:7; Luke 21:34-36.
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    Tee Hee (stone age laugh)

    :) (middle ages laugh)

    :laugh: (modern laugh)
     
  17. skypair

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    Mel, BaptBeliever,

    I have a novel idea -- why not see the "days of Noah/days of Lot," not as to what happened to them AFTERWARD but as referencing how people were living up to the events then and now?

    Life was going on pretty much as it does today -- eating, drinking, marrying, etc. (It's like Jesus purposely left out the unnatural events of sin, right?). So it seemed like just any other day when suddenly that day of judgment came!

    In fact, Luke says you better not be "surfeiting and drunken" like those in Noah's and Lot's time or you'll be caught unawares (Luke 21:34). What are we supposed to be doing? "Watching and praying" -- watching especially for the snares of Satan that keep us from watching for the rapture/disappearances which Mt 24:40-41 say come next! What, pray tell, would cause us not to be watching? false rapture theories! :smilewinkgrin:

    Prewrath and postrib are NOT getting the people of God ready! They're building a picture of the days of Noah and Lot, of what happens AFTER those days, that Jesus never mentions. They're preparing God's people for martyrdom, like those of Noah's and Lot's day, not for the "blessed hope!"

    Instead, get this Mt 24:32-41 imagery in your head: fig tree -- normal life -- disappearances!

    DON'T get this picture in your head: Israel in captivity again -- 1/2 the world's population has died and now there is world war apreparing in Jerusalem -- disappearances. That's NOT what Jesus is presenting here for us to "watch" for.

    skypair
     
    #17 skypair, Aug 30, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2006
  18. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Skypair -- Preach it! :thumbs:
     
  19. Mel Miller

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    Make you Think

    skypair's "novel idea":

    Quote:
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Postrib are NOT getting the people of God ready! They're building a picture of the days of Noah and Lot, of what happens AFTER those days, that Jesus never mentions.
    ______________________________________________________________

    You need to get together with EE who says "AFTER" means "BEFORE"!!!
    Then you need to re-read what Jesus predicted must occur "in the days AFTER those days"!! Then you will begin to see the need to "prepare"!!!
    Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31. EE claims Matt.24:31 describes the Pretrib Rapture! That means, according to him, Jesus never taught that "angels will gather the elect from all extremities of the heavens in the days immediately AFTER the great tribulation". So much for a "novel idea" from the self-styled expert who thinks Jesus "never mentioned" these things.
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:
     
  20. SBCPreacher

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    Thanks for the video link!
     

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