Heretic McClaren denies hell again

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Revmitchell, Apr 22, 2008.

  1. Revmitchell

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    Though he did not specify at Willow Creek which traditional doctrines need revision, McLaren wrote in his 2007 book "Everything Must Change" that the doctrine of hell needs radical rethinking. He argues that people who believe in hell may be inclined to dominate and take advantage of other people, rather than help them.


    Story Here
     
  2. Jon-Marc

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    If he doesn't believe in hell, won't he get a big shock at the end of his life?
     
  3. JustChristian

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    Who are you to say?
     
  4. TCGreek

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    McLaren must be a heretic since Christ preached more about Hell than Heaven.
     
  5. Martin

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    It is not just hell:

    That, in bold, is also unBiblical heresy. Instead of writing a post I will just allow Scripture to speak.

    "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to son, to those who eagerly await Him." -Heb 9:28

    "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and life up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near" -Lk 21:28

    "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man" -Lk 21:36

    "Therefore, be on the alert - for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning - in case he whould come suddenly and find you asleep. What I say to you I say to all, Be on the alert!" -Mk 13:35-37

    "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory..." -Phil 3:20-21

    "looking for and hastening the coming of the Day of God..." -2Pet 3:12a

    "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure" -1Jn 3:2-3

    "He who testifies to these things says, Yes, I am coming quickly. Amen. Come, Lord Jesus." -Rev 22:20

    Notice the connection between holy living and looking for the second coming. That is the Bible speaking! Maybe McLaren needs to read his Bible and stop trying to be popular.
     
  6. The Scribe

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    Yes, he will. Denying hell, when Jesus spoke about hell more than Heaven, is heresy.
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
     
  8. TCGreek

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    Mr Brian McLaren must be called out for what he really is, a false teacher.

    The Scripture is replete with references of guys like McLaren in the Last Days.

    This is no surprise to me.
     
  9. guitarpreacher

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    I've heard a lot of people say "Jesus preached more on Hell than Heaven" but the truth is hell is only mentioned 14 times in the Gospels and Heaven is mentioned at least 75 times in the book of Matthew alone. And that's not counting other words such as Kingdom.

    That doesn't make hell less real, but the idea that Jesus spoke more of Hell than Heaven is a myth
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    Apparently you are only counting those passages that use the word hell.
     
  11. StefanM

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    Matthew's uses of the "kingdom of heaven" instead of the "kingdom of God" are less about references to heaven and more about a circumlocution of terminology.
     
  12. TCGreek

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    I tend to agree, Stefan.
     
  13. Analgesic

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    Disclaimer: I haven't read McClaren. Heck, I didn't even read the linked article.

    But, based solely upon the quotations given in this thread, I don't think anything's been said to deny hell or make him a heretic. That is not to say that he has not otherwise denied hell or made heretical statements. However, simply arguing that a doctrine needs re-thinking is not itself heretical.

    As for Martin's quote, there's absolutely nothing heretical about pointing out that believers' service to others is sometimes inhibited by certain doctrinal emphasis. This is a purely descriptive statement which is certainly not itself heretical.

    Again, I'd like to emphasize that I'm not arguing that McClaren isn't heretical. I am, however, urging more thoughtful caution when examining which specific statements to bring forth as evidence of such.
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    Read the article before commenting:BangHead:
     
  15. Analgesic

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    No.

    My point has nothing whatsoever to do with the article's assessment of McClaren, and I'm not willing to dilute my point by moving on to add an examination of the article to the discussion. My point is simply that the excerpts provided in this thread were poorly chosen and fail to demonstrate any heretical doctrine whatsoever.
     
  16. Revmitchell

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    Then your assessment has no value. Good luck
     
  17. Analgesic

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    How refreshing to see a Reverend so open to criticism.
     
  18. Martin

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    ==What I understand you as saying is partly true. A person can get so "heavenly minded as to be no earthly good" and, your right, that is a problem. However that is not what McClaren was saying. He was saying that we must totally change those doctrines. What he was saying is heretical. Again I point everyone to the Scriptures I quoted. Scripture makes it clear that a healthy expectation of the return of Christ is necessary for proper New Testament living.

    From the article:

    Clearly this man (McLaren) does not believe what the Word of God says about hell, heaven, wrath, holiness, grace, and the second coming of our Lord.
     
    #18 Martin, Apr 25, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2008
  19. Analgesic

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    Martin, I'm torn. On one hand, simply saying that a particular doctrine needs rethinking certainly doesn't seem heretical to me. I don't think heresy can arise until one makes a statement as to what the preferable doctrine would be and why. I look at that last sentence and red flags certainly do go up, but I wouldn't be prepared to call him a heretic until learning how he theologically justifies such a conclusion. My reluctance is furthered by two things. First, the fact that it's a highly metaphorical book at issue means that alternate interpretations seem quite possible (again, much rests on the criteria given for holding to a particular interpretation). Second, his statement in the second-last paragraph that you quoted isn't so far off from reformed eschatology, which I certainly don't hold to be heretical.
     
  20. Outsider

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    I agree with guitarpreacher when he said: "That doesn't make hell less real, but the idea that Jesus spoke more of Hell than Heaven is a myth"

    I find it hard to believe that Christ actually preached more about hell than He did about heaven. I have heard it spoken many times, but when I read the gospels, I don't find it to be that way.
     

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