Heretics should be murdered!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by matt wade, Nov 28, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. matt wade

    matt wade
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    76
    "Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death, knowingly and willingly incur their guilt. It is not human authority that speaks, it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule for His Church." John Calvin

    Luke2427 has told us that "I don't think in our culture that burning them at the stake or beheading them is the answer." So obviously Luke2427 agrees with John Calvin and believes that in cultures other than our own that burning them at the stake is perfectly acceptable.

    Is this what we glean from Calvinism and the "Historic Christian Church", that murdering people is OK and that if you don't think it is OK that you should also be murdered?
     
  2. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,439
    Likes Received:
    0
    Matt,
    Don't be Luke2427... It's not attractive for his position and it's not attractive to your (and mine) position.

    Neither your posts like this or Luke2427's posts are at all in the spirit of Christ. Please stop this!
     
  3. matt wade

    matt wade
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    76
    My other thread was a parody and meant in jest.

    This thread, however, poses a serious question. If John Calvin (whom Calvinism is named after) and the biggest proponent of Calvinism on this forum both agree that murder of heretics is an acceptable practice, then what does that tell us of Calvinism? Should the Calvinists on this board cry out against John Calvin and Luke2427?
     
  4. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    Heretics should be murdered!

    "Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death, knowingly and willingly incur their guilt. It is not human authority that speaks, it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule for His Church." John Calvin


    Wow! I did not know this. I do not understand why a person would call themselves a follower of any man's teaching no matter how close it is to perfect. Jesus is Lord. Thank you for the info.
     
  5. matt wade

    matt wade
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    76
    Here's another quote from John Calvin: "Moreover, God Himself has explicitly instructed us to kill heretics, to smite with the sword any city that abandons the worship of the true faith revealed by Him."

    Calvinists on this forum, is this the teachings that you follow? What does it say about the theology of John Calvin that he so easily would commit murder?
     
  6. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,609
    Likes Received:
    157
    Naturally Calvin was assuming he would be the one judging who was or was not a heretic.
     
  7. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,178
    Likes Received:
    610
    It must be another one of the great teachings gleaned from the Catholic Church that IFB's are missing out on.
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    The only thing you have shown is you are in way over your head, and cannot post or respond biblically on most topics. Not only have you failed to address biblical calvinists in any meaningful way...but you are alienating those who have an understanding similar to what you would profess.
    If you expect anyone to take you seriously you need to repent of this abysmal and misguided attempt of opposing the truth of God. If you cannot ,maybe you should only post in the coffee shop, or entertainment sections.
    Posting quotes out of context and trying to relate that to us today has no bearing on the teaching called calvinism.
    This only shows your hatred of truth that causes you to rage on and on....about teaching you can not even explain well enough to take a biblical stand about it.
     
  9. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calvin's teachings were no where close to perfect, they were as far from perfect as darkness is from light.

    Who does Calvin remind one of? Saul (Paul), BEFORE his conversion. Saul before his conversion put people to death, he threw them into prison, falsely believeing he was defending the truth. After Paul learned the truth he became a new man and went about doing good. No such change occurred with Calvin.
     
    #9 Winman, Nov 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2011
  10. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmm, those are rather interesting quotes. Gotta link where I can read them in context? Did Calvin present scripture he thought supported such an idea?

    You gotta remember, there was a whole lot of killing going on in the name of religion in those times. Very few were innocent bystanders. Those who were killed were just as likely to have been the killer if only they'd had a little more power. Death in the name of religion has gone on since the OT.

    Dang Matt, this makes twice I've had to defend Calvin tonight!!! Cut it out already!
     
  11. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, we know winnie, you want to get as close to possible, and beyond in aligning Calvninsts with being lost.

    This prattle goes on here constantly.

    Also, you'll pay for saying Calvin is lost, as you show no fear in practicing these accusations. Classing those who don't believe your interpretations as lost is common practice for you as is seen in your above post.
     
    #11 preacher4truth, Nov 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2011
  12. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    I do not understand why people who claim to be so bible smart would miss this about their leader. And if they know, why would they continue? This is not love.
     
  13. Thousand Hills

    Thousand Hills
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,488
    Likes Received:
    4
    This is hilarious :laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  14. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. John Calvin is not the Calvinist's "leader." He was a great expositor of the Scripture, but not a perfect person.

    2. I'm not going to go into much detail, but we are speaking of a totally different culture. Do you or the others here believe in the death penalty? I don't agree with it at all, but we just have to understand it wasn't 2011.
     
  15. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calvin was like the god he advanced, a god of force and compulsion. He was a tyrant, a dictator, he was sovereign, he could kill who he wished and justify himself. His actions were simply the reflection of his god.
     
  16. ashleysdad

    ashleysdad
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2009
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, if I understand you correctly you are saying that Calvin was NOT a christian? One of the leading figures of the reformation was not saved? Believe it or not Calvin taught more than just "Calvinism" and in ALL of his teaching he was completely orthodox. Saying or even implying that he was not saved is completely ridiculous! Disagree with what he taught if you must but don't resort to nonsense like this. For the record I am not a Calvinist just really tired of all the garbage like this. I came to this forum to try to increase my knowledge and sharpen my doctrines. Well I have learned and what I have learned is that Baptists can't get along with anyone that doesn't believe just like they do. This is TRULY sad!
     
  17. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    You'll get over it.

    Whether Calvin was saved or not is not for me to judge. But he certainly did not act like Christians who are known for love and mercy like their Saviour.
     
  18. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    So I guess those that follow Calvin will justify or minimize his ways? This man was clearly confused. Love and hate dwelling in the same heart and he was a great reformer? Forgive my ignorance but I've not heard of this mans life til now.
     
  19. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    You understand him correctly.
     
  20. The Archangel

    The Archangel
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes Received:
    0
    First off, as JBH has stated, Calvinists do not identify (or, at least, should not) identify themselves as Calvinists first and Christians second. After all, "JC" stands for Jesus Christ, not John Calvin

    Secondly, Calvin was not and is not infallible. I greatly disagree with him on baptism, for example. As a Calvinist, I do not follow his teachings blindly. In fact, I do not follow him at all. As I've said many times: Calvin was essentially Augustinian and Augustine was essentially Pauline.

    I will gladly disagree with Calvin when and where he is out of step with Scripture. Calvinism is not a cult, after all.

    Third, the world in which Calvin lived saw no separation between church and state. In Calvin's day, to be a heretic was to be an enemy of the state. And it wasn't only in Geneva that this happened. When Luther was excommunicated by the Catholic Church, his life was in danger precisely because he was counted as a heretic by the church and, as such, he was also considered an enemy of the state--and all of Europe was that State.

    We must be careful not to read 16th Century history with the eyes of a 21st Century person.

    Do I understand why Servetus was put to death? Sure. Do I agree with Calvin's agreeing to put Servetus to death? No. Was Calvin the one who signed the death order? No. The major, overriding factor in Servetus being put to death was (obviously not including his heresy) the time period and state in which he lived.

    The Archangel
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...