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Heretics should be murdered!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by matt wade, Nov 28, 2011.

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  1. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    If a person calls himself a Calvinist, how can he say he does not follow Calvin? If it's only some of Calvins teachings, why use the name Calvin? Does good fruit come from a bad tree? Does only some good fruit come from a bad tree and the rest is bad? I don't understand this.
     
    #41 plain_n_simple, Nov 28, 2011
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    When I said no where do the scriptures command "us" to execute Christians, I was speaking of Christians under grace. I am quite aware of Moses' law.

    But I was asking you if you held to Covenant Theology and that we are still under Moses' law.

    Calvin knew Tit 3:10. You cannot separate him from the many executions in Geneva during his reign there, he was in control and you know it.
     
    #42 Winman, Nov 28, 2011
  3. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    No, he's not. He's respected, yes. But not a "leader" as you are implying.
    So you are against the death penalty? Should we love the murderers and not put them to death? Just want to make sure you are consistent.
     
    #43 jbh28, Nov 28, 2011
  4. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    I don't call myself a Calvinist. As for you question, it's a name given to those that believe in the doctrines of Grace because it was John Calvin that believed it during his time.
     
    #44 jbh28, Nov 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2011
  5. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    No, that's referring to his doctrine. You guys have to understand the time of Calvin. It was a capital offense to believe/teach heresy punishable by death. Do I agree? No. Do I think they were wrong? Yes. How is this relevant to today? Not really sure other than to be used as a red herring.
     
    #45 jbh28, Nov 28, 2011
  6. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Wrong. I can judge whether one's actions are "Christian", or even if someone is teaching contrary to scripture, which I absolutely believe Calvin's teachings were. I do not believe he accurately represented the God of the Bible. But only God knows the heart and whether someone has trusted Jesus for salvation.
     
    #46 Winman, Nov 28, 2011
  7. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    Yes I am against the death penalty.
    Jesus said forgive.
    Jesus said love overcomes.
    God said listen to Jesus, not the Law and prophets.
    If I were for the penalty, I would have to look at the results of those put to death. Did it stop murders? Not in the states with the penalty. Murders went up.
    How many have been put to death only to find out later they were innocent? Too many. But that is another thread.
     
    #47 plain_n_simple, Nov 28, 2011
  8. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    That's a fair enough assessment. You disagree with his conclusions.
     
    #48 jbh28, Nov 28, 2011
  9. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    I've heard differently, but I may be wrong.

    Ok, just wanted to see.

    Genesis 9:6 (pre-law)
    "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

    Maybe that could be a discussion for another thread...
     
    #49 jbh28, Nov 28, 2011
  10. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    Ok, I'm only trying to understand this, not pick a fight. The doctrine of grace is from Jesus, so who cares that John Calvin believed it in his time? Forgive me but it seems like Calvin is put on a high seat, when Jesus is the author.
     
    #50 plain_n_simple, Nov 28, 2011
  11. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    Genesis 9:6 (pre-law)
    "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

    Maybe that could be a discussion for another thread...

    Lol, you got me! I'm really only concerned with what Jesus said though. It might be pre-law, but it's still man under the curse.
     
    #51 plain_n_simple, Nov 28, 2011
  12. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    Can I quote you on that! :D
    Probably to some yes. I've never read from Calvin personally other than a few quotes here and there. I've heard he was a great expositor of the Scripture by both Calvinist and non-Calvinists. (Though non Calvinists would probably disagree with his conclusions.) I agree that doctrine comes from the Bible.
     
    #52 jbh28, Nov 28, 2011
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Calvinism is just a historical label that has come to represent a particular soteriological view. It doesn't mean all "Calvinists" support or believe everything Calvin taught or did. Same is true of Arminianism.

    I believe the OP is much ado about nothing. Culture has changed and things like slavery and Heretic executions were supported by otherwise decent followers of Christ. Calvin was a genius and notable biblical scholar. His work on prayer is amazing. I disagree with him on a few doctrinal points, as did Arminius, but in the great scheme of things we are very close and all of us would do well to show him the respect he deserves while still being able to rationally and objectively disagree with him on particular aspects of his teachings.

    Just my two cents worth...
     
    #53 Skandelon, Nov 28, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2011
  14. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    Thanks but I'll praise Jesus, the only name I need.
     
    #54 plain_n_simple, Nov 28, 2011
  15. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't believe anyone asked, or even implied, for you to do otherwise. :thumbs:
     
    #55 Skandelon, Nov 28, 2011
  16. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Incorrect Icon, the "line of reasoning" is misplaced theological passions being articulated in a less than appropriate manner. That is all that it is.
     
    #56 quantumfaith, Nov 28, 2011
  17. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #57 quantumfaith, Nov 28, 2011
  18. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    If someone today were to make the statement "God Himself has explicitly instructed us to kill heretics", we would, rightly, denounce the person, no matter the rest of their teachings or beliefs. John Calvin, however, lived 450 years ago, so we excuse his mad rantings? Was murder any less wrong 450 years ago than it is today? There have been Christians throughout all of church history that have gotten it right. They have not murdered others that disagree with them. John Calvin was not one of those. He was a murderer and claimed that he did it by God's decree! Blasphemy I say!
     
    #58 matt wade, Nov 28, 2011
  19. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Then you should be more careful with your words. You should have limited your comments to the New Testament.

    You asked no such question. But I did answer that I do not hold to Covenant Theology. I am closer to New Covenant Theology

    Your understanding of history is deeply and, perhaps, hopelessly flawed. Your statement above shows that you don't have the first clue about the history surrounding Geneva in Calvin's time.

    The Archangel
     
    #59 The Archangel, Nov 28, 2011
  20. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    I bow to your superior intellect Iconoclast. Yes, you are a superior biblical scholar. yes, you are superior in all intellectual ways. You have made me understand that one must be a true intellectual to understand the Word of God and that I am not worthy to even crack open a Bible, let alone talk about it.

    :sleeping_2:
     
    #60 matt wade, Nov 28, 2011
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