He's Making a list and checking it Twice

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Brother Adam, Jul 23, 2003.

  1. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
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    In my studies so far of Catholicism, I've been totally blown away by how much I was taught by non-Catholics were flat out lies or misconceptions. However, while Catholics don't worship Mary, and they don't sacrifice chickens, there are still many things I disagree with.

    For those non-Catholics who aren't anti-Catholic (i.e. will do anything to condemn Catholics to hell, such as Jack Chick), what are the valid issues that we disagree with Catholics on?

    I say lets make a list, maybe some things our Catholics friends can clear up for us (I have no doubt I still have many misconceptions about Catholic Doctrine) and maybe some of our concerns are very valid and their doctrine is anti-biblical.

    Here are a couple I have not been able to reconcile at this point in time:

    </font>
    • Mary's sinlessness</font>
    • Mary's perpetual virginity</font>
    • Infant Baptism</font>
    • Pope as infalliable in his official capacity on teaching of Faith and Morals</font>
    • Indulegances</font>
    • Paying for our sins after death</font>
    • Form of Church Government</font>
    Let's keep this thread to a list, and then open up other threads (actually I'm hoping for closed debates, but I don't think that'll happen) for each topic.

    Thanks,
    Bro. Adam
     
  2. MikeS

    MikeS
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    Bro. Adam and all,

    I'd like to see a degree of importance attached to such list items, indicating which items are considered more or less of a problem.
     
  3. Helen

    Helen
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    Praying to saints
    Confessing to priests
    Transubstantiation
    Celibacy
    The necessity of works
    Looking to Mary to get us ready for Christ
    Denial of salvation by grace alone
    Peter as the rock (in opposition to Christ being the Rock)
    declaring some special people saints when the Bible tells us all believers are
    the blood-filled, immoral, warring, persecuting history of the RC church
    the denial of the Rapture
    condemning those who don't agree with them to hell (check in with Vatican II and what it agreed with...)
    claiming to be God's representative on earth

    just a few more there...there are lots more, but it's late at night.
     
  4. Brother Adam

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    Oohh, this could be good. Some of these I know are misconceptions, some are valid concerns of mine too, and some I don't have any problem with!

    Keep'em coming though. I figure let's list everything we can so theoretically if we were to reconcile everything on the list we would all go and become Catholics.
     
  5. Carson Weber

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    Confessing to priests

    See John 20:21-23 and James 5:13-16

    "Receive the Holy Spirit: whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained".

    "Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the priests of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed".

    Transubstantiation

    See 1 Cor 11:23-31.

    "Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and the blood of the Lord".

    Celibacy

    See 1 Corinthians 7:32-38.

    "the one who does not marry her will do better"

    The necessity of works

    See James 2:14-26.

    "Was no Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works".

    Looking to Mary to get us ready for Christ

    This is an act of imitating God. Jesus Christ lived a life of obedience and love, honoring his mother Mary perfectly, and under her, he grew in wisdom and knowledge of the things of God. All Marian devotion has the sole end of Christian perfection, which is essentially union of the soul with its Bridegroom: Jesus Christ.

    Also, see John 2.

    Denial of salvation by grace alone

    Catholics affirm that salvation is by grace alone.

    Peter as the rock (in opposition to Christ being the Rock)

    See Galatians 1:18; 2:9.11.14 as well as John 1:42.

    "Jesus looked at him and said, 'You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Cephas', which is translated 'Peter'".

    Cephas/Kephas is an English transliteration of the Aramaic word for "rock". Not "big rock", not "little rock", not "boulder", not "pebble", but "rock". For little stone, there is an Aramaic word, and that is "lithos". Jesus spoke Aramaic, and in his native tongue, we see in the Gospels as well as in the Pauline Epistles references to Peter's Aramaic name.

    declaring some special people saints when the Bible tells us all believers are

    The Catholic Church affirms that all who are indwelt by the living presence of the Blessed Trinity are saints. The Church further canonizes particular saints in heaven in order to present examples of those who have imitated Jesus Christ in a life of sanctity, united wholly to the vine in a life of living faith - for us who are to do the same.

    the blood-filled, immoral, warring, persecuting history of the RC church

    This history is a separate issue from its doctrine. If you look at Jesus' day, Jesus affirms the authority of those who sit upon the chair of Moses and recognizes their authority and purity of doctrine (but not practice of that doctrine), while simultaneously, Israel's history (what some scholars call "Damnation History") is chalk full of a blood-filled, immoral, warring, persecuting history.

    See Matthew 23:1-16.

    "Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice'".

    In Matthew 13, Jesus presents the kingdom of heaven as a field in which a man (Jesus) sowed good seed (the Word of God) in his field (the Church), but "while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also".

    Nowhere in this parable do we see a hint of a Donatist conception of the Church. We see the conception of a Church that will be painted with grime throughout the course of history due to its weeds, which are among the hierarchy (remember, this is a "kingdom", and all kingdoms have a hierarchy) as among the laity.

    the denial of the Rapture

    The Catholic Church affirms the future event of the Rapture as taught in 1 Thes 4:17.

    condemning those who don't agree with them to hell

    The Catholic Church has never condemned a single indidividual to hell. It does, however, have the power to excommunicate (anathema) indidividuals in order to recognize that they are not visibly members of the Body of Christ. She does this after the example of St. Paul, who himself issued anathemas.

    claiming to be God's representative on earth

    See Matthew 16:16-19.

    The "keys to the kingdom of heaven" is precisely what the King's "representative" or "vizier" or "prime minister" would receive as a symbol of his authority.
     
  6. Brother Adam

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    Carson,

    Please be considerate. That was pretty rude.

    Thanks,
    Adam
     
  7. A_Christian

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    Well that's all fine and good; however, you would
    have to believe that Jesus didn't give the keys
    of Heaven to anyone else...
    What are the keys of Heaven?

    Look at John 20:22-24

    And when HE had said this, HE breathed on them,a
    and saith unto them, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
    Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted
    unto them; whose soever ye retain, they are
    retained."

    BUT THOMAS, one of the twelve, called Didymus,
    was not with them when Jesus came.

    HE GAVE THE KEYS TO THEM ALL. PETER wasn't singled out when it really counted----after the
    crucifixtion and before Jesus assended.

    You must remember that Peter proved himself a
    traitor BEFORE Jesus went to the cross. Peter
    was used of Satan (get thee behind me). This
    was written to discredit Peter as being special
    or above the others. The Bishop of Rome USED
    Matthew 16:16-19 in a grab for worldly power by
    taking the verses out of their context with the
    rest of the book.
     
  8. BrianT

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    I don't think he did it to be rude. He probably just forgot your request in the first post. I did too, I just didn't post a reply. [​IMG] For what it's worth, I'm glad Carson replied to that post, maybe a moderator will move it to it's own thread if you really want it moved.

    My personal list is similar to yours, but shorter:

    - Mary's sinlessness
    - Excessive devotion to Mary
    - Indulgences
    - Paying for our sins after death
    - Venial sins vs. mortal sins
    - Salvation for Muslims (paragraph 841 in the Cathechism - but I'm not sure I really understand what is being said here)

    A_Christian, the keys would make a good topic for a thread. I think Jesus *did* give the keys to just Peter (the pronoun is singular in Matt 16:19), so a thread on the subject could be interesting.
     
  9. neal4christ

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    They do not teach that Muslims are saved. They say that salvation is for them as well (i.e. they need it too). I had a thread on that a while back.

    My list would be pretty much the same as others have posted here. Mary issues are probably of the upmost concern for me. Also, though I have not studied it in depth, justification and related subjects are a concern for me as well.

    With all due respect to Carson, many of the verses you give to not support the issues you address them to unless you accept the Catholic teaching first. Like confession to priests. You assume that it is talking about priests because of where you are coming from. I just used that as one example.

    Sorry to disturb your thread Adam, but just a thought from me. Now I will be going, so don't look for me to respond for a long while. I broke down the last couple of dies and posted some when I should be staying away. [​IMG] [​IMG]

    In the Glorious Lord Jesus Christ,
    Neal
     
  10. Johnv

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    Praying to saints
    Saints are not prayed to. They're asked to pray for us. This is not biblically forbidden.

    Confessing to priests
    The bible tells us to confess our sins. Confessing to clergy is biblically allowble.

    Transubstantiation
    This is a matter of interpretation of whether the bread & wine literally become the body & blood of Jesus, or figuratively do so. This is not unbiblical outright.

    Celibacy
    Celibacy is a valid lifestyle choice. Paul was celibate, and did not chastise it.

    The necessity of works
    Works resulting from faith are not only biblical, but all faithful are called to do works as a matter of expressing faith.

    Looking to Mary to get us ready for Christ
    Not unbiblical outright.

    Denial of salvation by grace alone

    This is not what the RCC teaches. The RCC teahes salvation by faith in Christ alone.

    Peter as the rock (in opposition to Christ being the Rock)
    Christ calls Peter the Rock. To what extent this means is a matter of interpretation, and not unbiblical per se.

    declaring some special people saints when the Bible tells us all believers are
    The RCC teaches that all people are saints. However, it exemplifies certain people, which are officially called saints. But the RCC does not deny in any way that all followers of Christ are saints.

    the blood-filled, immoral, warring, persecuting history of the RC church
    Baptists aren't exactly sinless.

    the denial of the Rapture
    THe raprure is not dened. It's not an official teaching, and individual members of the RCC are allowed to interpret and come to conclusions about the rapture as they see fit.

    condemning those who don't agree with them to hell (check in with Vatican II and what it agreed with...)
    But we're the "separated bretheren" to whom salvation is also extended according to them, thus disagreeing with the statement.

    claiming to be God's representative on earth
    Yes, I have a problem with this.
     
  11. A_Christian

    A_Christian
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    Asking long "passed on" saits to pray for us, is
    like asking a long dead ancestors for a places in
    their wills.

    1. It's too late to change the will
    2. The money has already been distributed.
    3 They are not listening.

    Just interact with the living saints and then both get a blessing...
     
  12. Carson Weber

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    Hi Adam,

    You wrote, "Please be considerate. That was pretty rude."

    I apologize for not following your guidelines; I did not read the entirety of your post.

    Whether the content of my post was taken to be rude or not, the intention to be rude was not present.
     
  13. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
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    Thank you Carson


    *throws up hands* forget that I ever tried
     
  14. A_Christian

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    Oh, I've got another-----Mary assended.
     
  15. Catholic Dad

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    A_Christian wrote:
    Mary did not "assend". Only Christ ascended. Mary was assumed.

    To ascend means to rise under your own power. To be assumed means that Christ did the raising. the Church teaches that Christ ascended and Mary was assumed.

    Catholic Dad
     
  16. Refreshed

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    How about these (I hope I don't repeat any already given):

    1. Prohibition of eating meat at certain times.
    2. Catholic claim that Peter was Bishop of Rome.
    3. Mary's position as coredemptrix.
    4. Addition of the apocrypha to the canon.
    5. The use of "rote" prayers and the rosary.
    6. The use of the title "Father" for a priest.
    7. Doctrine of the Catholics has not changed since biblical times.

    That's all for now.

    Jason
     
  17. MikeS

    MikeS
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    Say What?!?! :eek:
     
  18. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
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    *Chuckles in agreement with MikeS' comment*
     
  19. Refreshed

    Refreshed
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    Say What?!?! :eek: </font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, did I say something wrong?

    Jason
     
  20. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
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    You've been taught that the apocrapha was introduced to scripture over 1000 years after it was. I don't blame you though at all. It's what all protestants are taught.
     

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