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Hidden influence of Mary in obtaining "faith"?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Jerry Shugart, Nov 13, 2003.

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  1. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    The church at Rome says that no one can come to the knowledge of God except through Mary and speaks of the hidden influence of Mary in obtaing "faith":

    Since faith is the foundation, the source, of the gifts of God by which man is raised above the order of nature and is endowed with the dispositions requisite for life eternal, we are in justice bound to recognize the hidden influence of Mary in obtaining the gift of faith and its salutary cultivation - of Mary who brought the "author of faith" into this world and who, because of her own great faith, was called "blessed." "O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee(ADIUTRICEM,Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, promulgated on September 5, 1895).

    Where can we find this in the Scriptures,and don't these statements contradict the words of Peter?:

    "the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"(Acts4:10,12).

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
    #1 Jerry Shugart, Nov 13, 2003
  2. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Is there not even one person who is a member of the church at Rome who will defend the teaching concerning the "hidden influence of Mary in obtaining the gift of faith"?

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
    #2 Jerry Shugart, Nov 14, 2003
  3. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    The answer is simple, and it's right in the text you quoted. Mary brought the "author of faith" into this world. This is the sense that "none attains salvation except through thee." It's flowery language, but that's all it means.
     
    #3 MikeS, Nov 14, 2003
  4. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    MikeS,

    What is "hidden" about the fact that Mary brought the Lord Jesus Christ into the world?

    That is not what Rome is saying.Instead,Rome makes it plain that all "gifts" (including the gift of faith") come from Mary:

    "First, as is meet and right, comes the Lord's Prayer, addressed to Our Father in Heaven: and having, with the elect petitions dictated by Our Divine Master, called upon the Father, from the throne of His Majesty we turn our prayerful voices to Mary. Thus is confirmed that law of merciful meditation of which We have spoken, and which St. Bernardine of Siena thus expresses: "Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us."(IUCUNDA SEMPER EXPECTATIONE,Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on September 8, 1894).

    This is in direct contradiction with the Holy Scriptures where it is revealed that besides the Name of Jesus Christ that "there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved"(Acts4:10-12).

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
    #4 Jerry Shugart, Nov 14, 2003
  5. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Mary, a lowly human virgin maid had no special gifts to given nor the ability to give them! God did not imput her with anything special. If he had, would Jesus be "fully human"? Not by any figment of the imagination. Mary had to meet every aspect of human normalcy, else she would be superhuman.

    "Rome" is quite simply wrong about Mary! But I suspect that not all of Rome is so afflicted! Just as there is disagreement between people of other denominations, there are disagreements among Catholics.
     
    #5 Yelsew, Nov 14, 2003
  6. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    Yelsew:
    Inspired Holy Scripture tells us of quite a special Mary:

    "And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy [is] his name." Luke 1:46-49


    God saved Mary. The Lord used Mary to Redeem the world. He did great things for her, and holy is his name. From that time forward all generations call her blessed. Her soul does magnify the Lord. She is a most special human being and all generations of Catholics call her blessed.

    [ November 14, 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
     
    #6 Kathryn, Nov 14, 2003
  7. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    Mary, a lowly human virgin maid had no special gifts to given nor the ability to give them! God did not imput her with anything special. If he had, would Jesus be "fully human"? Not by any figment of the imagination. Mary had to meet every aspect of human normalcy, else she would be superhuman.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Does this mean that Jesus was born in sin, so that He would be "fully human"? Or can one be without sin and still be "fully human"?
     
    #7 MikeS, Nov 14, 2003
  8. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Kathryn,
    What do you find in Luke 1:46-49, that indicates Mary had ANYTHING that every other human being does not have? My gracious Kathryn, if an Angel of the Lord had visited you as with Mary, your soul too would magnify the lord, and your spirit would rejoice in God your savior. Shucks you need not be pregnant for that to happen, it happens to me all the time. Do I have the distinction of being called blessed by all generations henceforth? No, but neither did God USE me in such a manner as he USED Mary. God did not however give Mary any special, superhuman gifts or powers. That is what makes the conception and birth of our savior so wonderful, ALMIGHTY GOD in the womb of an ordinary created human being. Never before, never again, Blessed is Mary the mother of Jesus.

    God could have used virtually any human female to do the same thing, but Mary is the only one at the time that could fulfill all of the prophesy concerning the mother of Jesus. Right time, right place, right age, right attitude, right lineage, right relationship, so, Mary it is who gets to be called blessed for all ages! One does not have to be Catholic to call Mary blessed, I call her BLESSED because God chose her to be the one, and SHE SAID YES! But again, no special gifts or powers were given unto Mary that she could give to others. There is no salvific power whatever in the Name of Mary! There is no Healing power, No teaching power other than what all mankind has, No GOD power in her after she delivered Jesus. Yes, as a mother she had some maternal authority over Jesus for a while, but no more nor less than any human mother has over her children.

    Mary is not Deity! She is a created being, just like all the rest of us! You can believe all the myths about her that you want to, but you will be surprised when you arrive in the next life only to find Mary "among all the other human women", being just exactly like them, and not sitting on a throne of deity, not telling Jesus what to do!

    God is using All of us to redeem the world, are you doing your part?
     
    #8 Yelsew, Nov 14, 2003
  9. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Well what do you think? Can the sinless one be born in sin? Not anymore than the rest of us are 'born in sin'. Not even David, the one who coined the misquoted phrase, was "born in sin".
    Perhaps his mother was the sinner when David was conceived.
     
    #9 Yelsew, Nov 14, 2003
  10. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Kathryn,

    Yes,the Lord did indeed "save Mary".The Scriptures declare that it is "sinners" who need salvation--the Lord Jesus was sent into the world "to save His people from their sins"(Mt.1:21).

    But Rome teaches that Mary was without sin.
    Yes,but the Holy Scriptures say nowhere that it is only through Mary that men come to a knowlege of God.The Scriptures do not speak of the "hidden influence" of Mary in receiving the gift of faith.

    The teaching of Rome in regard to the idea that all the graces of God comes to man by Mary cannot be found in the Scriptures,and the earliest believers never said one word about this.If this teaching is correct,then one would expect to see it mentioned at least once by those in the early church,but their writings will be searched in vain for any mention of this.It is not until hundreds and hundreds of years after the last Apostle died that this teachibg is found.

    It is nothing but superstition and it is not founded on the Word of God.

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
    #10 Jerry Shugart, Nov 15, 2003
  11. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Jerry,

    Mary was without sin because God her Saviour saved her from sin at her conception. That is why she is "you who have been fully graced" (See Luke 1:28 - kecharitomene).
     
    #11 Carson Weber, Nov 16, 2003
  12. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Mary, a lowly human virgin maid had no special gifts to given nor the ability to give them! God did not imput her with anything special. If he had, would Jesus be "fully human"? Not by any figment of the imagination. Mary had to meet every aspect of human normalcy, else she would be superhuman.

    "Rome" is quite simply wrong about Mary! But I suspect that not all of Rome is so afflicted! Just as there is disagreement between people of other denominations, there are disagreements among Catholics.     </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, there have been several challenges to Mariolatry, thru the ages, from within the church itself. Some have been quite bold.
     
    #12 Bro. Curtis, Nov 16, 2003
  13. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Okay....I'll bite, Bro. Curtis....

    WHAT are all those changes, especially the "bold" ones?

    Brother Ed
     
    #13 CatholicConvert, Nov 16, 2003
  14. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Brother Ed, I said challenges, not changes.

    Can you drink coffee ? ;)

    [ November 16, 2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]
     
    #14 Bro. Curtis, Nov 16, 2003
  15. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Carson,

    The Greek word used at Luke 1:28 is "charitoo" does not mean without sin at conception.It is used of all believers (Eph.1:6),and it is obvious that all believers are not born without sin.

    Mary knew that she was in need of a Savior just as all men have the same need.Hence her words:

    "And my Sprit hath rejoiced in God my Savior"(Luke1:47).And the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus came into this world to "save His people from their sins"(Mt.1:21).

    If Mary was "sinless" then it is obvious that she would have no need of a Savior.But she knew that she needed a Savior just like the rest of mankind.

    Paul makes it plain that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"(Ro.3:23),but I am sure that you will say that Paul really did not mean "all" in this verse.But earlier in the same epistle Paul says that "there is none that doeth good,no,not one"(Ro.3:12).

    But as usual I am sure that you will appeal to the church fathers in an effort to nulify what Paul says.But it is interesting that the earliest testimony from the church fathers that I can find reveals the opinion that Mary was not sinless.What is the earliest testimony that you can point to where anyone says that Mary was sinless?

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
    #15 Jerry Shugart, Nov 17, 2003
  16. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Jerry,

    You say that all believers (as written in Ephesians) have this.

    But the angel came to Mary and told her this before Jesus was even conceived in her womb. Jesus had not yet come, and had not yet died for the sins of men.

    Get the drift?
     
    #16 GraceSaves, Nov 18, 2003
  17. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    GraceSaves,

    And the words of Mary reveal that she knew that she too needed a Savior to save her from her sins:

    "And my Sprit hath rejoiced in God my Savior"(Luke1:47).

    The Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus came into this world to "save His people from their sins"(Mt.1:21).

    If Mary was "sinless" then it is obvious that she would have no need of a Savior.But she knew that she needed a Savior just like the rest of mankind.

    Paul makes it plain that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"(Ro.3:23),but I am sure that you will say that Paul really did not mean "all" in this verse.But earlier in the same epistle Paul says that "there is none that doeth good,no,not one"(Ro.3:12).

    In His grace,--Jerry
     
    #17 Jerry Shugart, Nov 18, 2003
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