Hidden Manna

Paul makes it clear in the Letter to the church at Collose that when we are saved, there is no "secret" knowledge.

That church was plagued by Gnostics who believed in secret knowledge that was necessary for salvation. Paul told them that it is not that complicated. We continue studying and working through difficult passages in Scripture, but from the cited passage, the true revelation comes when we accept Christ.

 

Yes, I understand that one can gain new insights on a re-reading of Scripture. It happens almost daily for me. My warning is echoing Paul's. The whole purpose of chapter 2 of Colossians is to refute specific heresies that do not necessarily reflect the true Gnosticism of the second and third centuries but may well have been the early seeds of that movement. The heresies which Paul refutes in this Letter are this (as summarized by the NIV):

1. Ceremonialism concerning food, drink, festivals and circumcision.

2. Ascetism found in verse 2:11, 3:11.

3. Angel worship as shown in verse 2:18

4. Depreciation of Christ addressed in 1:15-20, 2:2-3,9.

5. Secret knowledge as we see in 2:18.

6. Reliance on human wisdom as seen in 2:4, 8.

There is always a danger from those who feel that they have secret knowledge. We see in 1Thessalonians 5 that Paul emphasizes the knowledge that all Christians have and the things that are hidden, ie. the Second Coming. This doctrine reflects the teachings of Christ on the subject as well.

I did not mean to imply that you were advancing Gnosticism, but I feel it necessary to warn newer Christians about the practice. It is unscriptural, confusing, and the soil from which cults spring.

[ July 13, 2002, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

Hello GH,

Ive Many Times Thought That God Intentionally if not Temporarily held Back Knowledge From His Children..Each Of Us In Our Own Individual Way Has To Be Taught according to our Temperaments.
Not Necessarily That We Dont "Deserve" Higher Degrees of wisdom and understanding. Its How God Maximizes the Effects When The Wisdom and Understanding Becomes A Part Of The Individual... Its Like Something That You Have To Work For..You Come To Understand Its Value as "More" Than If Someone Would Have Just Handed It To You.

All The Laws In The World Were Never Meant To Save...That Credit Only Goes To God Himself.. but the wisdom we gain is an ongoing accumulation of rules and their reasons for existence are instructing and pointing us to who and what we are becoming...

Its The Individual Relationship That God INITIATES With His "Child" that is of a perculiar nature. The More We Observe These Individual Relationships we Do "See" Whats Lacking to Continue or to Become More "DEEPER".

We Could Follow All The Rules Of The Bible..But Without That "Tryed By Fire Relationship",
The Understanding would be wasted.....The Wisdom Eventually Obscured and Finally becoming Utterly Useless.

Then We Get To That Magical Introduction to The Meaning of Grace. The Rules of How The Family Operates,... but Now We Get To The Reasons Why.. (Wise Men Always Ask Why !)

We All Will Find Out At This Moment...
GOD IS SOVERIGN OVER HIS ENTIRE CREATION
Mankind Does Not Have Soverignty Over Gods Soverignty and Will and Purposes
That This Is Gods Plan For Everyone...Gods Plans Excludes No One
That No Individual Is More Special Than Any Other..All Are Treated Equally..In Gods Order
God Controls Everything, Therefore No Mistakes....From Beginning To End..Perfectly..
That God Really Does Have The Final Sayso In The Matters of Sin and Death

The Mistakes We Always See Are From Our Perspective..Mans Imaginations Always Will Be The Blame For Mans Failures..But Time Passes And Gods Plan Continues..

Funny thing About Paul was He Was Always Doubting Gods Complete Soverignty and continually Had to Be Reminded....(My Grace IS Sufficient)

God Wills, What He Desires, With Whomever He Desires, When He Desires..and Beyond That It Aint Nobodies Business How That Personal Relationship Between God and His Child Occurs or Operates..
Sure We Get Insight..Lets Get Together and Talk..Not Forsaking The Assembling..Right..But We Are Always Admonished That We Are Individuals and Totaly Responsible For The Decisions We Make...As Individuals..Not Groups..

Funny Thing About People Who Are Growing..They Become So Strong With What They Believe To Be "True" That The Building Up Of Their Character To Believe In Something,.. Was More Important That What They Believed In, At The Time....

That Learning To "Fight" For A Belief ..Right or Wrong..Can Be Used To Establish A Strong Foundation When "Truth" IS Finally Established...

Look At These Boards on The Internet..Knowledge Has Increased..Wisdom, Faith,..New Paths To Investigate. New Foundations To Establish..When It Comes Down To It..We Are Helping Each Other. (Whatever Side Of The Argument your On) Were Learning How To Establish Our Individual Beliefs by learning How To Display Ourselves Through Communication.
We Are Learning How To Feed Ourselves....

When Its All Over We Still Come To The Same Conclusions We Always "Felt" To Be True All Along.....God Is All In All....




Me2

 

GH

I agree with you that it's amazing how God reveals new things to us through and in Bible passages when we reread them, even if we've read them lots of times before!

And Jesus said I have more to say than you can now bear...to his disciples.

So we know that God chooses the right time to reveal things to us...that sometimes He waits, for our good.

His timing and ways are perfect, aren't they?

love
Helen-AITB

 

Me2: "Funny thing About Paul was He Was Always Doubting Gods Complete Soverignty and continually Had to Be Reminded....(My Grace IS Sufficient)"

Respectfully disagree. The passage you're referencing deals with Paul's physical infirmity, not his secure knowledge in the sovereignty of God.

1 Cor 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Paul wanted his infirmity healed, because he thought it was holding him back from preaching the Word more perfectly.

If you've got some other verses or passages that show that Paul doubted the sovereignty of God, I'd really like to look at them.

[ July 14, 2002, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

Paul is of like passions as we.

Its easy to talk-the-talk concerning the sovereignty of God, then we must learn to walk-the-talk.

Paul was given the revelation of what we call the sovereignty of God intellectually, then he had to learn via experience.

I remember reading somewhere in Pilgrim's Progress where Pilgrim is talking with Evangelist (I believe) and he is told that we must not only walk with the Lord when He dresses us in fine linen but also when he dresses us in rags.

My opinion of course.

HankD

[ July 14, 2002, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Me2, with all due respect, I saw that Ken interprets 2 Cor 12 that way too, but I don't think Paul was expressing 'doubt in God's sovereignty'.

Or - if he was then so was Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane when Jesus said "If it be possible, let this cup pass from me - yet not my will but thine" - I see the two passages as very similar.

So, if Jesus could have that deep struggle and not doubt God, then I think Paul was the same way, in 2 Cor 12.

What Paul was struggling with wasn't whether God was in control but that God decided NOT to take it away. It was not a problem with God being in control; it was a problem understanding what could be good about this pain - and God's answer - which you quoted only in part, with all due respect, continued "my power is made perfect in weakness".

Anyway, maybe we are saying the same thing in different words; I'm not sure Me2. I hope you don't mind me commenting on this. I might be wrong

love
Helen-AITB

 

Hello Don,
I Talk About This Generally To Begin...
We First Meet God By Him Introducing Himself To Us..when we become actually interested in Finding Out Even If He Exists
He Through The Law Relays To Us That Their Is Order In The Universe and if We Would Like to Discover Who He Is We Should Investigate...(Choose This Day Who You Will Follow)
He Introduces Us To Jesus..The Only Way To God...The Only Plan Of The Creator.
Jesus As The Blueprint Of Creation...Is Represented As The Final Consummation That The Father Desires Mankind To Become...Good without Evil, Love Without Fear...etc, etc..
We Are Becoming A Small Representation Of The Father Himself..not completely but close...Finite...(are We A Part Of The Triune ? All In All..Right ?)

There Is Only One Way..But He Allows Us To "Rebel" or Think We Have Some Control Over Our Lives...Free Will Right...We Learn About Individualism..ME or God?

At This Point We Start To Think More Abstractly...God Is Creator..But Hes My Personal God...Its His Ideas Of Condescension To Mankind. He Allows Us To Think He Is Like Human As We Are....But He's GOD...Hes PERFECT....Hes INFINITE...He Created EVERYTHING...

Our Enemies are His Enemies...Right? Ahhh...God Doesnt Have Enemies...
God Is All In All...He Plays Both Sides Of The Field..Good As Well As Evil...Thats Sovereign
Control...

But If We Concentrate on The Plan Of Salvation ..Which Evolves Around Jesus Christ..we Come To Find out All Is Being Used Against Us As Well As For Us... FOR OUR GROWTH.
And Its God The Father Who Is Control 100%...Thoughts,Dreams,Hopes,Plans,Actions.
Every Movement of Everything in God Universe Is Preplanned For OUR BEST INTENTIONS.

Yes Their Is Order...Christ, Then His "Body", Then EVERYONE ELSE..Reconciliation is Not Only For A Select Few..BUT For EVERYTHING...Thats God..Perfect...Soveriegn...

Gods Love Is Infinite...Perfect...(How Big Is Infinite....???) God Is Absolute
In Our English Language..Absolute is Final..Perfect...Nothing Can Be Added

Its Mans Imaginations That We Say Man Has Power Over God..We Want To Call It Free Will..or We Want To Say That God Doesnt Control Everything..Sometimes He "Blinks" and lets things Happen wrongly by Accident or Even That He Just DONT CARE

He's GOD.........Were Not..
He's Perfect......Were Not...
He's Absolute...Were Not
Inside His Creation..He Commands Sovereign Authority...Its His To Will With It As He Pleases..Perfectly...Absolutly...WITH LOVE...ie Mercy,Forgiveness,Grace..

Now We Get To Paul..Paul Learned The Law while being under The Veil Place By God On The Isrealites..To The Point Of Even Persecuting His Own People For Not Following The Rules Of His Society...Blood and Guts were in His Teeth..waiting for His God To "Save Him"..
Sure God Introduced Himself To Paul via The Law..But God Held Back Paul From Meeting Jesus.....(Sovereignty of God....Hmmm?) Learning How To Fight For What You Believe ?
Building Character ?.."Hating God"..Noooo. He Was Loving God..So Paul Thought...

Paul Is Learning How To Let God Love Him...Incorrectly....Enter Jesus..
Paul Has To Deny Himself The Honor Of Being "Saved" By The Law And Give Up Complete Authority To Everything He Understands As Control....To Comprehend...Faith.
Paul Unfortunately Is Always Confronted With Opposition..Law And Flesh and Disbelief of others...Even To Living That Fine Line Of DOUBTING GODS COMPLETE SOVERIENGTY.

God Plays Both Sides Of The Field..Gods Plans always return Fulfilled..What We Imagine as The Game God Is Playing is Always Not What Actually Occurs in The End...Paul Was Used To Commanding Authority, Getting Full Attention As A Man Of Distinguished Character, Being A "ROMAN"..

Were All Like That..If God Cares About Molding Us As Children..He Uses Doubt, and weakness to continually introduce moments where we can SEE HIS GRACE...

"My Grace Is Sufficient"....It Wasnt A Knock Against Paul...Just Uncovering Some Hidden Manna about Us By Using Paul As An Example...Thanks Dad

Paul Was Continually Saying That His "Job" was To Preach Jesus and Him Crucified...
That Was Only The Beginning Of Life For You And Me...Understanding To Learn How To Comprehend Gods Love and Mercy and Forgiveness...But When We Step Away From This We See That As An Individual..We Do Not Have The Right To Question How God Deals With Anyone other Than Ourselves..Thats Where The Blank Pages Of OUR LIVES BEGINS..

As A Perfect Individual..Taught By GOD Alone..Judged By None, Persuaded By None, Controlled By None..But God HIMSELF...That Sovereingty Of God In LOVE

God Is ALL In ALL


Me2

 

Howdy AITB.
Another Bit Of Rambling On My Part..I Think In Conceptual Form..
(I Think Its An Age Thing)
Memorizing Scripture Verse By Verse Was Always Hard..Especially Using KJV

Now When We Finally Think We've Got Our Personal "Perspective" Down Pat...God Steps In And Says..Try Looking At The Very Same Ideas..Only From His Perspective...

From Law and judgement....Now, Looking From Mercy and Forgiveness..

Maybe Thats Why God Said To Only Say "Yea or Nay". Dont Get Caught Looking To Silly From learning from only Our own individual viewpoint

Come On Now...Ultimate Vagueness...God Is All In All
Did You Ever Look At An Ardvark and Say God Is Expressing Himself ?

Can We Say His Grace Is Sufficient...
What Is Gods Final Outcome?.....Perfection..
Even For The Ardvark...(hehehe)


Me2

 

Me2,

Two posts up I just had to say AMEN and AMEN, God has given you such insight I can't thank him enough for all the amens I shout inside myself when I read your posts. That was a keeper in my opinion, I gain so much from your posts and know the truth of these things myself. Me2 I thanks God for you I really do, you have a gift for putting these things into words, most often I have nothing to add to it whatsoever. Keep sharing "I'm listening" and get alot from your posts.

I'm really glad your here because your one of the few keeping me here

In Him Kim

 

What I see, Me2, is a mixing of terms. Reading through your post at least twice, what I see is that you say sovereignty = control; i.e., God's sovereignty = God is in control.

Paul never doubted this.

Where the mixing of terms comes in is with the statment "My grace is sufficient."

His grace is His love, the love for the world that He gave His only begotten son. That's not control, nor lordship; that's mercy, love, compassion.

Thus, "my grace is sufficent" is not the same as "my sovereignty is sufficent."

I don't really know how to explain this in simple terms. Paul knew God was in control at all times; he asked for the thorn to be removed from him so that he could more perfectly preach the Word. What he needed to learn was that God's love was sufficient to get through to the people, no matter the messenger.

I can't explain the difference in simplistic terms, but the difference is there.

As for the rest:
Yes, God is in control at all times.
Yes, bad things happen; but God does not necessarily cause them. This is an error with Ken's teachings, as scripture specifically tells us in Job that Satan was the one who moved against Job; God merely "gave him permission," so to speak.
As with Job, God may allow bad things to happen. He has the power to stop them, and may choose not to. The obvious question is "why?"

And the answer lies with Job: To further glorify God.

So I disagree with you on a couple of points here.

 

Hi Don,
First Of All Big Guy ...I Aint Ken..The Words That I Say Come From Me..I Came To This Board With The Knowledge From Years Back. Not Yesterday...So There ! I Hear Ya...The Similarities Are spooky... Thats Where I Say....Given Enough Time God Is All In All..
All Truths Eventually Relate and work with All Other Truths...Or For Some Absolute Central Purpose..

God Invented Everything..We Havent Learned The Connection or Relation. We Are Told That Everything Is Made For Him (ie..return of Glory To).
God Made Satan..God Made Demons..Not A Fallen Creation but Made To Fullfill A Specific Duty..To Fulfill A Specific function..God CONTROLS All..He Tells Satan WHAT TO DO. He orders Satans Thoughts..His Intents..His Ways..
Satan Is Like A Living Hammer..Specific when Necessary..Always Hammering Something.
God Controls Every Creature Angels,Demons,Satan.. They Have Many Functions..

Their Parameter Of Functions Have Been Designed Before The Creation.. Nothing New or Unexpected.... So Im Saying That The World, Flesh and Devil...Are Tools Designed By God To Be Used Of God For The Purposes Of Designing Personalities Prepared For God To Live Through..Billions and Billions Of Individuals To Love Himself Forever...I Didnt Design It..Im Only Trying To Comprehend It.

God Just Blames Satan..All Evil Returns Back To One Individuals Fault..Ever Notice That ?
Satan Did It..Its Not Your Fault..Satan Did It..Satan Made Me Do It..They were From Their Father..The Evil One..
So When Everything Is Said And Done..Its Not Your Fault...Satan Did It..He's So Bad
God Invented His Own Fall Guy For Creation And Someone To Blame For Every Occurrance of Error. That Is So Cool...God Does No Evil or Tempts or Destroys...Satan Did It
But God Gave Him His Marching Papers, His Tools, His Victims......His Excuse

I Really Dont Think About This Much..To Me It Just Is..Accept It..

Its All A Part Of Growing Up...No Law...No Sin...No Death..

My Life With God Is Like Driving Down A Road..Red Light Stop.. Green Light Move Forward.
Pretty Simple..If I Get A Strong Inclination of Something I Want To Focus On....Do It..
God Is In It..He's There.. (It Was His Idea) you'll Get Another inclination if You Decision Doesnt Work Out..Another Decision...Change and Do Something Else..Dah..
Life Is An Ever Unfolding Play.With yourself As A Principle Player..If You Smart You'll Figure Out Gods Intentions Before They Occur..Faith ? Ask Anything Of My Father In My Name ?
Question: Is This For God To Change Our World..or Is It To Teach Us Of Gods Existence In Our Day To Day Life? Can We Maniplate God In This Fashion?
Answer: If Your At This Level And The Idea Pops In Your Head....Find Out What Happens!
Are You Coming Up With The Idea Or Is God Talking To You?...To Ask?

Paul Chose To Preach..His Life Needed Emphasis To Continue (imho) . Like You Said He Lived In GODS GRACE..It Was Sufficient..God Chose Paul To Have Inadequacies. Apparently They Were A Point Of Contention Which were Important To Pauls Focus. Pauls Questioning Gods Decisions Of Leaving This Problem Kept God Centrally Located In Pauls Focus.. Keep In Mind..He Was A Man..Prone To Doubt..Forced To Continually Be Living By Faith. Day By Day

The Inconsistencies Of OTHER People was A Large Focus..People Just Didnt Get It.
God Dont Love Me......God Didnt Die For That Sin...God didnt Die For That Person.
You Gotta Add This To Be Saved...Its The Law Or Nothing...

Our Problems Doesnt Lie With Paul..Its With Ourselves..Pauls An Example That God Allowed Us To See And Follow..He Was A Man..Just A Man..Nothing Supernatural..
God Spoke Through Paul In Reference To Ideas On How To Live..Paul Still Had To Stand Back To Recognize An Individual and Their Rights of Individuality..Each Reference Is One In Which God Can Explain To Us On An Individual Level...Personally..

In Being So Busy For The Lord..Paul Steps On All Peoples Individual Rights....Or So Religion Has Successfully Conquered All Remaining Barriers Left...Preachers Teaching Our Wives...Our Children...Isnt That The Head Of The Housholds Responsibility..Even To The Point Of Expressing What We Should Be Believing....And God Help The Individual If Their Wrong....
I Dont Blame Paul..Because Its Not His Responsibility..I Blame The System Of Religion..
and How Its Conquered The Minds Of Men...Without Religion Men Are Nothing...

No I Think Thats Gods Call..and if anyone can interpret Revelation and The Letters To The Churches We Would Confirm That God Wants Individual Relationships..Not Relationships Designed Under The Guidance Of Men..

Going Back To Job... It Was Jobs Turn To Be Tried..And If You Believe God Gave Satan Permission..That Too Small A GOD..God Told Satan To Do HIS JOB..
Notice The Condescension..Acting Like A Human Would..Almost Laughable

Man Has This Funny Way Of Continually Wanting To Control Other People..Thats The Real Evil..Man Against Man....Adultry....Even Jesus Was Ticked Off At That Action.
You Know..One Person Overpowering Another To The Point Of Forcing Choices Upon Another..

Is This Another Way Of God Using His Soveriengty ?
Or Using Satan As His Hammer Within Religion ?

Me2

 

Me2,

Again Amen and Amen!

The Lord's been blessin my socks off here ....(see my toes?) lol!

On the same page

In Him Kim

 

Hello GH,

Thinking Out Of The Box Is Basically Expressing (In This Forum) Whatever Comes To Mind.
I Myself Am Focusing On Doctrine That I Havent Expressed or Been Able To Form Understandable Sentences To Myself. At Some Point Ill Again Disappear Into Obscurity with A Fresh Outlook Of What These Doctrines Mean To Me...

I Never Was One To Be Attached To Any Religion, Although Wisdom Comes From Any Christian Source. My Responsibility Would Be In Interpreting and Making These Expanded Revelations My Own...

Such As Feeding Myself..Of Course By The Leadership of The Holy Spirit.

In This Forum..Would I Be Frightened Or Scared To Express Myself Knowing Reputiation Is Closely Following Me. ?

Who Gives This Knowledge?

Who Interprets This Knowledge?




Welcome To The 6th Day When We Collect twice As Much Manna


Me2