"Him" drawn is "HIM" raised to eternal life

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    The same "him" drawn is the same "him" raised up to life eternal. Hence EVERY "him" drawn is also EVERY "him" raised to eternal life.

    1. A pronoun grammatically is identified by the nearest antecent. The second "him" in the above sentence has for its nearest antecedent the first "him" in the above sentence - hence, they are ONE AND THE SAME PERSON.

    2. The phase "I will raise him up at the last day" is first introduced in John 6:39 which identifies the "him" of John 6:44 with the "him" of John 6:39-40 as ONE AND THE SAME PERSON.

    And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    The pronoun "it" in verse 37 is neuter because it modifies the neuter nouns which are its antecedents and are the terms "all" and "nothing."

    What does this mean? It means that the "him" and "it" are ONE AND THE SAME as the consequence is ONE AND THE SAME.

    1. Both are equally raised up to life eternal
    2. Both equally come to Christ
    3. Both are "OF ALL" which are given by the Father to come to Christ

    This means that the "him" of verse 44 is the "it" and "him" of verses 39-40 as well as the "all" of verses 37,39.

    Hence, ALL who are given EQUAL "him" that is drawn.

    Hence, ALL who are given EQUAL "him" that cometh to Christ in faith.

    NONE "of all" given shall be lost because they will be raised up to eternal life
    NONE of "him" drawn will be lost because the very same "him" will be raised up to eternal life.

    This is indisputable exegetical based evidence for OSAS.
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Excellent post!

    May I just criticise one point, point 2. below,

    1. Both are equally raised up to life eternal
    2. Both equally come to Christ
    3. Both are "OF ALL" which are given by the Father to come to Christ

    Would you agree that like in your quoted Scriptures, point 2. should be Passive:

    2. Both equally _are brought_ or _are drawn_ to Christ ...?

     
  3. The Biblicist

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    I think if something is being drawn it is actively coming as well. The word "draw" emphasizes the power of God and the passivity of what is being drawn. However the word "cometh" emphasizes the active obedience of the one coming. the first is the cause the latter is the effect but they are inseparable as joint actions.
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Yes; there is much 'coming' of many never 'drawn' ... without 'effect', in other words, useless.

    But there is NO 'coming' of any not drawn ... drawn AGAINST their will and inclination NOT to 'come'.

    The 'effect' as well as the 'cause' belong to the Lord. "Salvation is of the LORD"--ALL of it, 'cause' AND 'effect'.

    "... unto good works CREATED ..." if I remember correctly.
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    I think the drawing is further described in verse 45 and 65 as being "given" a willingness to come rather than drawn "against their will."
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Dear Biblicist, I have great sympathy with your understanding. but there are two facts of life only life and the Scriptures can confirm for anyone. While we are --passively--born again and given a new heart and an upright spirit in us, we are these things IN OUR OLD MAN that never died and will not die before our body dies.

    The great consolation for or in this condition is solely that we are and STAY being saved by GRACE only till the day we give our last breath of our old man and our spirit or life or soul born in the First Resurrection into the hands of our heavenly Father.

    Moral of the story: We stay CORRUPT all our lives even after our regeneration.
    Second moral of the story: Do not think, ever, the old man weakens with age; he does not; he GAINS strength exactly through the EXERCISE he gets in COMBAT with our new man created after Christ by God.

    Paul said he fought the good fight, meaning he fought it all his life, to the bitter LAST!

    These two things never become no longer true or no longer effective. They become more acutely true and real as one grows older and eventually stares death in the eye. I know. God did not save me from life's realities; He saved me from the reward for my sins - death. God saved me from sin and eternal death and will save me from myself and this body of death when He shall hide my life with Christ in God on death's bed. NOT BEFORE.
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Therefore, it will be better if you stay with the written Word, "No man CAN come unto Me EXCEPT it were GIVEN him OF MY FATHER."

    That is quite another thing than <as being "given" a willingness to come rather than drawn>--ON THE CONTRARY!
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    The new nature comes with a new willingness and that is seen in coming to Christ by faith. You are quoting John 6:44 but look at John 6:65 where Christ replaces "draw" with "given" and "given" refers to coming to Christ by faith as that is what was missing among those in verse 64.

    I think you believe regeneration is being given a new heart, a believing heart, hence the distinction is only between cause and effect. Where there is cause there is effect as they are simeltaneous in regard to time but have a logical order of drawn as cause and coming in faith as effect. Jesus said "whosoever will" may come not "whosoever won't will come."
     
  9. BobRyan

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    All squares are rectangles.

    The same object that is a square is also an object that is a rectangle. But your wild idea that we are then free to "imagine" that all rectangles are squares is out of the realm of reason.


    "I will DRAW ALL unto ME" John 12:32

    But not all will come to Christ even though drawn.


    There is no "NONE of those drawn will fail to come to me and have eternal life" in all of scripture - though it is a much-imagined Calvinist hope to find such a text.

    But the inverse can be found - all of those that come to Christ were among those drawn when Christ "Draws ALL unto Me".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    We are not discussing geometry but the Bible. Your response is irrational. the double him proves that the SAME him drawn is the SAME him that comes and raised. There is NO OTHER "him" DRAWN - period - end of story!





    You respond with an unstainable assertion that contradicts the explicit teaching of scripture. I present black and white evidence which you wisely ignore simply because dealing with it would expose your complete nonsense.

    There is "no man" drawn but "HIM" and the SAME "him" is raised to eternal life. So NONE fail to come and obtain eternal life of all drawn as there is NONE drawn but the SAME "him" that is raised up.
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Thank you; you explained and stated TRUTH, well!
    I accept.

    God bless
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Now you say 'all' means' all; now you say 'all' means just some ... <all of those ... among> When it suits you! Even <among> the very same <all>!

    Typical Arminian swindler you are!

     
  13. BobRyan

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    Originally Posted by The Biblicist [​IMG]
    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    The same "him" drawn is the same "him" raised up to life eternal. Hence EVERY "him" drawn is also EVERY "him" raised to eternal life.


    Indeed but I am using it to illustrate your the fallacy in your argument - that you keep circling back to - time and time again.

    That is hardly credible since all admit that the broad context and the narrow context apply here just as it does in the case of Rectangles and Triangles AND it is incredibly easy to see that you "need" the reader "not to notice".

    You keep arguing that the SAME object that is a square is the SAME object that is also a triangle.

    And so you ... "do it again".

    oh well.

    Mean time Christ said "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" not just those who come to him.

    And in Rev 3 the SAME author says that Christ "stands at the door and knocks so that if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in"

    Neither of these texts say that ALL DRAWN will come or that ALL upon whose door Christ is knocking WILL choose to OPEN that door.

    Calvinists simply have to "make that up".

    Obviously.

    In the same way - John 3:16 (God so LOVED the World - yes really!) and John 1 form "context" leading up to John 6 "informing" us that it is the WHOLE World that is the "ALL" - the "unqualified all" of Christ's ministry and outreach.


    But calvinism is stuck "imagining" that "Christ does NOT Draw ALL" to quote you - no matter what He says to the contrary and that ONLY the squares are rectangles, ONLY those who come to Christ are drawn.

    Indeed your much imagined idea - without a shred of Bible evidence to support it.

    A another great example of a statement not found in all of scripture is this


    Instead "God so loved the WORLD" --- yes Really!

    And "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:36 is what the "Actual Bible" says.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #13 BobRyan, Jun 25, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2013
  14. Yeshua1

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    Again, you MUST undrstand the use of all in the contex and passage and intent, as jesus did NOT mean that all would come to him to get saved, not that He died so that all could come to him!
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    The fallacy is that you are pitting Geometry with English and Greek Grammer!!!! The Grammar denies your position and no amount of appeal to geometry can change grammar.

    The "him" of John 6:44a is the "him" of 6:44 according to English and Greek grammar and no amount of appeal to geometry can change that. You are simply wrong and too pround to admit it. You may call upon your god of geometry but your god of geometry cannot altar contextualized Greek grammer and make it say something opposite to what it says.



    He does not say this at all - it is you rewriting John 12:32 that says this. Nowhere in the text can you find "not just those who come to him." Those are YOUR words not Christ's.

    You cannot possibly deny HONESTLY that John 12:32 is said in context in response to GENTILES wanting to COME TO HIM. You cannot possibly deny HONESTLY in cultural context that the Jews denied salvation outside of Judaism as they demanded Gentiles must be proselytized as Jews to be saved. You cannot possibly deny HONESTLY in the overall context of John in regard to the use of "draw" with the term "all" has formerly been QUALFIED to refer to the "children of God" (Jn. 6:45 quotes Isa. 53:14) and that this is born out by verse 45b so that "EVERY MAN" (not just some) thus taught by God "cometh to me". Hence, the "ALL" of John 12:32 is the same "ALL" of John 6:45 in the same context of DRAWING.

    This is one of the most pathetic examples of your abuse of scripture!!! He is not addressing lost people but a QUALFIIED Audiance - "saith unto the churches."

    That is precisely what John 6:44-45 does say and says it explicitly "ALL" (v. 45) thus taught equals "EVERY MAN" thus taught do "cometh to me" (v. 45b).

    Your interpetation is not merely 'made up" but a clear repudiation of Christ's explicit words to the contrary.



    Pure assumption! The QUALIFIED "all" in John 6 cannot possibly refer to every man without exception - impossible! ALL given come and all that come are not lost - Jn. 6:37-39 NOT SO WITH THE "WORLD" in Jn. 3:16

    The QUALFIED "ALL" in John 6:44-45 cannot possibly refer to every man without exception - impossible! Jesus is quoting Isaiah 53:14 where the "ALL" is qualified to be "the children of God." Jesus is QUALIFYING this same "all" of Isaiah 53:14 to be "EVERY MAN" thus taught by God which "EVERY MAN" thus taught by God do in fact "cometh unto me" - v. 45c.

    You are perverting the Scriptures by your rash and ungodly hands to say the very opposite of what they clearly and explicity state and the grammar demands in spite of your perverted geometrical responses - geometry cannot change the grammar.
     

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