1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

His Work versus our works

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, Mar 5, 2011.

Top Posters
  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    2
    Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    1. There is something defined in this text as God's Work.

    2. His work is described as a CREATIVE work - "created" and creation is something no creature can do or ever partakes in.

    3. His work is attributed as the cause for being "in Christ"

    4. His work that creates us "in Christ" PRECEDES our "good works" as we are created in Christ Jesus "UNTO" good works. Therefore our "good works" are the consequences and His work is the cause.

    5. Furthermore, if we follow the contextual development backwards we will discover that His work - created in Christ Jesus - is the same as what verse 9 denies is "of works"!

    6. Furthermore, if we follow the contextual development backwards we will discover His work is referred to as "the gift of God" in verse 8

    7. Furthermore, if we follow the contextual development backwards we will discover that "the gift of God" modifies "and that not of ourselves" in verse 8

    8. Furthermore, if we follow the contextual development backwards we will discover that "the gift of God" modifies "by grace are ye saved through faith" as its contextual antecedent.

    9. Furthermore, if we follow the contextual development backward we will see that verse 8 simply repeats and redescribes verse 5:

    Eph. 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    10. Furthermore,if we follow the contextual development backward we will see that verse 5 is merely a repitition of verse 1:

    "1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

    CONCLUSION: God's creative work is divine quickening which is a "gift of God" that is inclusive of both spiritual life and faith due to the grace of God. Hence, neither divine quickening or saving faith are "of works" but are part of God's CREATIVE WORK placing us "in Christ" PRIOR to our "good works." Therefore, there are no "good works" that can be attributed to being savingly placed "in Christ" or be attributed to having been "saved by grace through faith."
     
    #1 Dr. Walter, Mar 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2011
  2. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    2
    It is also interesting to notice the consistent cause versus consequence development in Ephesians 2:1-10.

    Verse 1 - the Cause - divine quickening
    Verses 2-3 - the previous condition
    Verses 4-5 - the Cause - God's love and quickening
    Verses 6-7 - the consequences - our position and future
    Verse 8a- the cause - saved (divine quickening) by grace inclusive of faith verses 8b-9 the denial of works as cause for saved...through faith
    Verse 10a - the cause - creation in Christ
    Verse 10b- the consequences. - "unto good works....walk in them"
     
    #2 Dr. Walter, Mar 5, 2011
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The lost - unsaved person is convicted by the Holy Spirit "who convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

    The lost - unsaved person is supernaturally drawn to Christ "Who draws ALL mankind unto himself" John 12:32. This enables the free will that depravity disables.

    The lost - unsaved person chooses to to believe Christ "with the heart man believes resulting in righteousness" Romans 10.

    The lost - unsaved person chooses to act on that faith - and confess Christ "with the mouth man confesses resulting in salvation" Romans 10.

    The good works of the saved saint - are then what follow as that saint "perseveres in doing good" Rom 2:7. We are created by God to do good works. We are a new creation. The Law of God is written in our heart under the New Covenant and we walk in a way that is pleasing to God. It is only the wicked lost person that "does not subject himself to the law of God - neither indeed can he" Rom 8:7

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, Mar 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2011
  4. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    2
    You cannot deal with the text and so you divert the reader and try to divert me! Deal with the text!


    These two texts are ripped out of context. John 14-17 concerns the world wide mission under the direction of 'another comforter." The term "world" refers to the Gentiles and their mission.

    John 12:32 is explicitly the response by Christ to GENTILES who want permission to see him. The Greek text has the anarthous construct for "pas" which means "all kinds" and the term "men" is not found in the Greek text.

    Yes, but only with the NEW HEART that is FIRST given him in regeneration (Ezek. 36:26)

    Ezek. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    This "new heart" is the CAUSE for the willingness to "keep my judgements" not the Old heart - this is the act of regeneration, the creative work of God which includes the gift of saving faith (Eph. 2:8-10a).

    Romans 2 has nothing to do with the saints at all. Neither does "persevering in doing good" have anything to do with entrance into heaven or obtaining eternal life.
     
    #4 Dr. Walter, Mar 5, 2011
  5. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    2
    The words "are ye saved" in Ephesians 2:8 translates the perphrastice construct which involves the perfect tense verb with present tense state of being verb. This means it is a completed action at some point in the past that not only stands completed up to the present time of writing but when joined with the present tense in the paraphrastic construct that completed state of action continues! Significantly the preposition "dia" with "pistos" demonstrates that at that past point of completed action it included "through faith" thus making that act of faith also a completed action in the past that stands completed and continues as completed.

    Regeneration is inseparable from gospel conversion through faith as a cause and consequence relationship and as a past completed action. This "saved" state is the creative work of God because regeneration is giving a new believing heart (Ezek. 36:26; 2 Cor. 3:3; 4:6; 1 Jn. 5:1; etc.).

    There is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ and Ephesians 2:8-10a describes how one is CREATED in Christ by God as a "saved" completed state that endures as a completed saved state.
     
    #5 Dr. Walter, Mar 5, 2011
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian

    Nothing I said above was intended as rebuttal or contradiction to Eph 2:8-10 - as the details in my comment demonstrate.


    Speaking of John 14 and John 16 - Walter makes the sweeping statement
    Wrong.

    I merely quote them and affirm their content - you intern try to bend wrench and dillute them -- you seem to object that I merely quote them and accept them.

    How odd.

    The term "world" means "World" in the book of John as we see in John 1 and in John 3 and yes - in John 16.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Mar 6, 2011
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The lost - unsaved person is convicted by the Holy Spirit "who convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

    The lost - unsaved person is supernaturally drawn to Christ "Who draws ALL mankind unto himself" John 12:32. This enables the free will that depravity disables.

    The lost - unsaved person chooses to to believe Christ "with the heart man believes resulting in righteousness" Romans 10.

    The lost - unsaved person chooses to act on that faith - and confess Christ "with the mouth man confesses resulting in salvation" Romans 10.



    Wrong.

    The lost person is drawn and convicted as a lost person - not as a saved new creation.

    God does not first zap em into being a Christian THEN convict them of sin.

    God first convicts THE WORLD and DRAW ALL mankind -- that supernatural act of God results in the the Rev 3 example of God ON THE OUTSIDE knocking and mankind on the INSIDE needing to CHOOSE to open the door and let him in.

    To the one that CHOOSES Christ is given the promise

    Ezek. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    This "new heart" is the RESULT of choosing to submit to the drawing and convicting work of the Holy Spirit.

    Obedience to the Law of God - is the act of regeneration, the creative work of God which includes the gift of saving faith (Eph. 2:8-10a).

    But CHOOSING to open the door when Christ is on the outside and knocking is the act of the person who is ALONE on the inside - that has choice ENABLED due to the fact that God "DRAWS ALL mankind" and God "Convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment".


    John 3: God so love the WORLD "yes really" not just some tiny sliver of the world called "the Few" of Matt 7.

    John 16: God convicts the WORLD "yes really" not just some tiny sliver of the world called the "Few" in Matt 7.

    John 12: God draws ALL mankind to Himself "yes really" not just some tiny sliver of the World called the "FEW" in Matt 7


    Romans is written to the saints - hint read vs 1-17 of Romans 1.

    Romans 2 speaks to those who "by persevering in doing good" inherit eternal life.

    Again -- you simply must deal with these inconvenient details of scripture instead of constantly complaining about the text of scripture.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Mar 6, 2011
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The lost - unsaved person chooses to to believe Christ "with the heart man believes resulting in righteousness" Romans 10.

    The lost - unsaved person chooses to act on that faith - and confess Christ "with the mouth man confesses resulting in salvation" Romans 10.

    Hint - there is no such thing as an unsaved born-again person. Being bornagain is the RESULT of choosing to open the door to Christ and THEN being "IN Christ" ... "IF anyone is IN CHRIST he is a NEW creation" 2Cor 5.

    The point remains.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #8 BobRyan, Mar 6, 2011
  9. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    2
    Bob,

    When are you going to be honest enough to deal with the OP? You divert, ignore and change it to what you want this thread to be about! Why not deal with what the thread is about?

    I am not going to follow your shotgun spread that hops from one text to another text without end. I am dealing with Ephesians 2:1-10. When are going to honor the thread and deal with what the thread is about?
     
    #9 Dr. Walter, Mar 6, 2011
  10. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2010
    Messages:
    942
    Likes Received:
    1
    EPH.2 [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that WE SHOULD WALK in them.

    Good works? Before ordained that we should walk in?

    PSALM 78 [1] Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.[2] I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN A PARABLE: I will utter dark sayings of old:[3] Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.[4] We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.[5] For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:[6] That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:[7] That they might set their hope in God, AND NOT FORGET THE WORKS OF GOD, BUT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS:[8] And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.[9] The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle.[10] THEY KEPT NOT THE COVENANT OF GOD, AND REFUSED TO WALK IN HIS LAW;[11] AND FORGAT HIS WORKS, and his wonders that he had shewed them.

    We all know who opened his mouth in parables and who established a testimony in Jacob. Yup, its JESUS CHRIST. So according to Eph.2 Gods people who recieve the free gift of grace, will be walking in the “WORKS” that God ordained. But...verse 9 and 10 prophecies of what will happen to the “many”, because they refuse to walk after (His works) the 10 commandments.

    MARK 13 [4] Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? [5] And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: [6] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    Dont be amoung the many. Dont forget HIS works. Walk in them and recieve the free gift
     
    #10 Chowmah, Mar 10, 2011
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...