Historic PreMill - and the 2nd coming

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Feb 8, 2007.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    R. C. Sproul recently did a series on escatology and the closest group to what I find in the Bible - sounds like Historic PreMillennialists.

    Anyone know of any outside of my group?

    Do you find them among Baptists?

    (According to the baptists-not-a-denomination thread apparently you can find ALL types among Baptists -- but I am looking for significant representation in that group for Historic Premill types).

    1. Literal Tribulation
    2. Literal 2nd Coming
    3. Literal Rapture at Christ's appearing
    4. Literal 1000 years

    Etc. --- Just like Matt 24 states the sequence.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    There are Baptists who believe in the postribulation rapture and
    premillinnial Second Coming as shown above:

    1. Literal Tribulation
    2. Literal 2nd Coming
    3. Literal Rapture at Christ's appearing
    4. Literal 1000 years

    This is NOT all of 'Historic PreMillennialism'.
    Historic PreMillennialism didn't have a post-tribulation
    rapture nor a pre-tribulation specified. Historic Pre-mill
    was a-rapturist in nature (no rapture/Tribulation Period
    relation specified).

    Here are the current most popular future time-lines:

    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. literal church age continues -- you are here
    1. literal rapture/resurrection
    2. literal Tribulation time
    3. literal Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. literal new heaven & new earth

    Post-trib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. literal church age continues -- you are here
    2. literal Tribulation time
    3. Literal Second Advent of Jesus event
    (same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. literal new heaven & new earth

    Pre-trib a-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues -- you are here
    (same as 2. Tribulation time)
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
    4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom, in heaven
    5. spiritual new heaven & new earth

    Done-did preterist a-mill (AKA /also known as/ partial preterist)
    outline of time forward:

    0. literal church age continues -- you are here
    1. rapture/resurrection -- already happened
    2. literal Tribulation time -- you are here
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event -- already happened
    4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom -- already happened
    5. literal or spiritual: new heaven & new earth -- you are here

    All these theories use Matthew 24-25 as proof texts.
    They also use the parallel passages in Mark 13 and
    Luke 17 & 21 known as the Mount Olivet Discourse
    of Jesus /MOD/.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Post-trib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. literal church age continues -- you are here
    1. literal Tribulation time
    2. Literal Second Advent of Jesus event
    3. Literal Rapture/Resurrection
    (ED says - same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection)
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. literal new heaven & new earth


    That follows the very "sequence" given in Matt 24 -- and it matches what R.C Sproul describes as the historic premill position

    But I have a few questions.

    #1. "Same 12 hour day" where did THAT come from?
    #2. In all your scenarios the Saints "raptured" mean the saints "IN HEAVEN" and the John 14 promise "In My Father's house are.. I GO that I may prepare a place for you ... I will come again and RECEIVE you (up) to Myself..." -- fulfilled when the saints TAKEN up - GO to that place WHERE Christ went. In the scenario above - that is still true.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    I'm Calvinist. So here's my (personal) go at the 'historical sequence' of end-time events (a la Ed Edwards' phrasings):


    1. literal church age continues
    present (figurative) MK=millennial kingdom
    present (figurative) new heaven & new earth
    troubles and tribulation, wars, and rumours of violence
    "It is the end nor yet"
    It is 'End-time' though -- we are here

    2. Second advent of Jesus
    Resurrection of all
    Judgment of the lost
    Hell and its punishments -- 'the seven last plagues'
    It is the end -- we are there not yet

    3. literal church age continues
    future literal eternal Kingdom
    future literal eternal new heaven & new earth
    No more death or sickness or tears
    It is the New Earth
    We pray for it to come
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    BR (quoting EE):

    "Same 12 hour day" where did THAT come from?

    GE:

    I'll take a guess: "as from the east to the west".

    I also believe Jesus' coming will be on the Sabbath Day. God shall finish even what He predestined in Jesus Christ, upon "the Seventh Day God thus concerning spake".
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    I also believe Jesus will return on the Sabbath, for is the Sabbath - 'Saturday' - not the day especially of people marrying and making merry as has been through all ages as well as that of Noah?
     
  7. BobRyan

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    So it does not bother you that the sequence you just gave does not fit Matt 24 NOR Rev 19-20?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    It fits in in every respect.
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    And most naturally, according to the course the Gospel has taken.
     
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Dear Bob,
    I'll send you an attachment-e-mail with 'lay-outs' of Rv20 and Rv as a whole. This is not my 'subject' of real interest although I have spent much study on it. If I am mistaken somehow, it won't bother me; it is not an essential of the Gospel of salvation.
     
  11. billwald

    billwald
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    The "Rapture" was invented by Darby in the 19th century.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Your statement was invented in 1956.
    The statement was invented in 1956 by straw-grasping post-tribulation
    only raptureists (who were pre-millinnial Second Coming folk)
    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
    [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Thessalonians [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:17 ([/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The Latin Vulgate)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
    deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur
    cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper
    cum Domino erimus

    The Latin Vulgate was translated about 475AD and has been around
    over 1500 years. So the "Rapture" was 'invented' over 1,500 years ago.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV1611 Edition):
    4:17 Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp together
    with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the aire: and so shall
    wee euer bee with the Lord.

    Could you figure it out better if we called it the 'CaughtUp'?




    [/FONT]
     
    #12 Ed Edwards, Feb 10, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2007
  13. BobRyan

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    True but the 1Thess 4 fact of the saints literally caught up in the air at the coming of Christ was there long before Darby.

    Darby simply "invented" the idea that this does NOT fit the MAtt 24 sequence and that 1Thess 4 where the "DEAD in Christ rise FIRST" is NOT the "FIRST resurrection". Obviously he was in error in doing that -

    His error does not change 1Thess 4 and the fact of the saints being caught up in the air to meet Christ and then taken to heaven according to the John 14:1-4 promise of Christ.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #13 BobRyan, Feb 10, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2007
  14. BobRyan

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    Speaking of how the Matt 24 sequence is seen to contradict GE's sequence --

    Yet as we have seen in Matt 24



    pretty hard to miss
     
  15. DHK

    DHK
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    That Darby "invented" the rapture is the equivalent of saying,
    The Catholics "invented" the trinity. :rolleyes:
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Darby simply "invented" the idea that this does NOT fit the MAtt 24 sequence and that 1Thess 4 where the "DEAD in Christ rise FIRST" is NOT the "FIRST resurrection". Obviously he was in error in doing that -

    His error does not change 1Thess 4 and the fact of the saints being caught up in the air to meet Christ and then taken to heaven according to the John 14:1-4 promise of Christ.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur
    (not in the order in which the questions were asked):

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
    (in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
    instead of an outline. This is most noticable
    in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
    I believe the major outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc.)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.

    --------------------------------------------
    Scripture is from the KJV1611 Edition

    Mat 24:3 And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues, the Disciples came vnto him priuately, saying,
    I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
    II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
    III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?

    That was the order in which the questions were asked.

    Here is the time order of the fullfillment of these events:

    I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
    III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?
    II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,

    Here is the question & the scripture in the order events come down:

    I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
    Mat 24:4 And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Take heed that no man deceiue you.
    Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ: and shall deceiue many.
    Mat 24:6 And yee shall heare of warres, and rumors of warres: See that yee be not troubled: for all these things must come to passe, but the end is not yet.
    Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdome against kingdome, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diuers places.
    Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrowes.
    Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliuer you vp to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and yee shall bee hated of all nations for my names sake.
    Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    Mat 24:11 And many false Prophets shall rise, and shall deceiue many.
    Mat 24:12 And because iniquitie shal abound, the loue of many shall waxe cold.
    Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure vnto the end, the same shall be saued.
    Mat 24:14 And this Gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in all the world,
    for a witnesse vnto al nations, and then shall the end come.

    III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world? (world should be 'age')

    Mat 24:31 And hee shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
    gather together his Elect from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.
    Mat 24:32 Now learne a parable of the figtree: when his branch is yet tender, and putteth
    foorth leaues, yee know that Summer is nigh:
    Mat 24:33 So likewise yee, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is neere, euen at the doores.
    Mat 24:34 Uerely I say vnto you, this generation shall not passe, till all these things be fulfilled.
    Mat 24:35 Heauen and earth shall passe away, but my wordes shall not passe away.
    Mat 24:36 But of that day and houre knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of heauen, but my Father onely.
    Mat 24:37 But as the dayes of Noe were, so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
    Mat 24:38 For as in the dayes that were before the Flood, they were eating, and drinking,
    marrying, and giuing in mariage, vntill the day that Noe entred into the Arke,
    Mat 24:39 And knew not vntill the Flood came, and tooke them all away: so shall also
    the comming of the Sonne of man be.
    Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field, the one shalbe taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:42 Watch therfore, for ye know not what houre your Lord doth come.
    Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the good man of the house had knowen in what
    watch the thiefe would come, he would haue watched, and would not haue suffered his house to be broken vp.
    Mat 24:44 Therefore be yee also ready: for in such an houre as you thinke not, the sonne of man commeth.

    II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
    Mat 24:15 When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken
    of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the holy place, (who so readeth, let him vnderstand.)
    Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Iudea, flee into the mountaines.
    Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the house top, not come downe, to take any thing out of his house:
    Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field, returne backe to take his clothes.
    Mat 24:19 And wòe vnto them that are with child, and to them that giue sucke in those dayes.
    Mat 24:20 But pray yee that your flight bee not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning
    of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
    Mat 24:22 And except those dayes should be shortned, there should
    no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.
    Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say vnto you, Loe, heere is Christ, or there: beleeue it not.
    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shal shew great signes and wonders: insomuch that (if it were possible,) they shall deceiue the very elect.
    Mat 24:25 Behold, I haue told you before.
    Mat 24:26 Wherefore, if they shall say vnto you, Behold, he is in the desert,
    goe not foorth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers, beleeue it not.
    Mat 24:27 For as the lightening commeth out of the East, and shineth euen vnto
    the West: so shall also the coming of the Sonne of man be.
    Mat 24:28 For wheresoeuer the carkeise is, there will the Eagles bee gathered together.
    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those dayes, shall the Sunne
    be darkned, and the Moone shall not giue her light, and the starres shall fall from
    heauen, and the powers of the heauens shall be shaken.
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man in heauen: and
    then shall all the Tribes of the earth mourne, and they shall see the Sonne of man coming in the clouds
    of heauen, with power and great glory.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Indeed as you point out - you need to slice out vs 15-30 and place them out of order - because you are arguing that "when they SEE the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven" VS 30 they certainly do NOT find that the "ANGELS are GATHERING" the saints Vs 31 a that time -- so you simply move the text.

    Matt 24
    29 ""But [b]immediately after the tribulation[/b] of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


    30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and [b]they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
    31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[/b] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


    As for the start of Matt 24 --

    Here we see a clear reference to the future event in 70 A.D the destruction of Jerusalem.

    The disciples view the end of Jerusalem as “the end of all things” but to be certain they ask about specifics, the destruction of the temple, the sings of Christ’s coming AND the end of the age. (Not knowing if they are all the same event or not). However as we learn in Matt 24 the Coming of Christ IS the end of this age for that is exactly how John describes His Coming (Rev 19) and the END of all the wicked along with the resurrection of the saints (Rev 20).


    Leaving 29-31 IN their order IN their place we find historic premill!

    Matt 24
    29 ""But [b]immediately after the tribulation[/b] of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


    30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and [b]they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
    31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[/b] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    Why does this:
    Matt 24:44 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Therefore be yee also ready: for in such
    an houre as you thinke not, the sonne of man commeth.


    come after this (post-trib rapture only)?

    Matt 24:30 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man in heauen: and
    then shall all the Tribes of the earth mourne, and they shall see
    the Sonne of man coming in the clouds
    of heauen, with power and great glory.


    According to my understanding of Matthew 24:3, it makes perfect sense.
    Feel free to show why the warning of Matthew 24:44 comes after
    Matthew 24:30. Thank you in advance for your generours explanation
    (others not involved in this discussion are welcome to join at this time).

    I repeat again: Historic Pre-millinnialism was neither pre-tribulation rapture
    nor post-tribulation raputure only. Historic Pre-millinnialism never taught
    the post-tribulation rapture only theory until about the 1950s.
    (no, the classic SDA teaching was NOT post-tribulation rapture only.

    Why does this:
    Matt 24:44 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Therefore be yee also ready: for in such
    an houre as you thinke not, the sonne of man commeth.


    come after this (pre-trib rapture)?

    Matt 24:31 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And hee shall send his Angels with
    a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
    gather together his Elect from the foure windes,
    from one end of heauen to the other.


    Simple, because the Second Coming of Jesus to whup up
    on Satan & his Antichrist AND to set up a physical/literal
    Millinnial Messanic Kingdom on a physical/literal earth -
    that Second Coming is still on the schedule AFTER the
    pretribulation rapture/resurrection of the Church Age
    elect Christian born-again paid-by-the-blood-of-Jesus
    Saints.

    On another Discussion a person points out that
    North Carolina is consider in the South part of the USofA
    even though it has the word 'north' in it. North Carolina
    is south of Virginia which is also part of the 'south'.

    It might be a good assumption to assume that Matthew 24:4-44
    is in time sequence - but that isn't necessary. The parallel
    MOD = Mount Olivet Discourse of Jesus, is found in
    Luke 17 & 21 and Mark 13 - but the events are listed in
    different order(s) than Matthew 24:4-44. Additionally, Mark
    13 only asks two questions (Mark 13:4) which are related to
    when the destruction of the Temple will happen and to
    what the sign would be of the coming destruction of the Temple.
    Luke 21:7 has the disciples asking only one question:
    when would be the destruciton of the Temple.

    I've seen both these used by preterists to say that all the events
    that Jesus spake of were fulfilled either by the events leading
    up to the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70AD
    or the Church age* that followed .

    *Note - preterists don't like to use the phrase 'Church Age', that
    is a pre-mill phrase.
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV1611 Edition):
    4:17 Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp together
    with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the aire: and so shall
    wee euer bee with the Lord.

    "Caught up" from 'harpagehsometha', Marshall: "we shall be seized".

    One may be 'caught up in a frenzy' - with feet firm on the ground.

    Jesus was "taken up" - 'analehmphtheis'; "as He went" - 'poreuomenou' (Acts 1:11, 10) -- very different words; very different meanings!
    "He shall come with His holy angels"; He shall come (back again) "just as you saw Him going".

    "We which REMAIN"; "we the ones living remaining, together with them in the clouds" shall be caught up as in a cloud together to the meeting of the Lord ('coming again') in the air".
     

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