Historic Premillennialism defended

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Aug 14, 2014.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
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    This is the only alternative eschatology view that in my POV may be correct. It's been a while since I read anything on it, but can those that hold to it tell me why you do and why you left Dispensationalism? NOTE I am not interested in a debate with post mill, preterists or others thanks..
     
  2. OldRegular

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    Historic, also called Covenant, Premillennialists hold to the Biblical teaching regarding the Church for which Jesus Christ died! Progressive dispensationalists are moving in that direction!
     
  3. Tom Butler

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    My first exposure to eschatology was from a Dispensational viewpoint. I bought into it big-time.

    Then along came a pastor who held to Historic Pre-mil. We dispys challenged him. He held up his hand. "Guys, we're not going to argue this issue right now. You have an assignment. I want you to find me one scripture verse which teaches pre-trib rapture. It has to be clear, unmistakable, and not subject to any other interpretation."

    No problem, I thought.

    But I couldn't find one.

    That's when I became Historic Pre-mil.
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    they also hold to the 1000 years reigning of christ on earth after his second coming, and that there will be a final antichrist, do you?
     
  5. OldRegular

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    I don't believe in a literal 1000 year earthly reign as you well know. I believe in an eternal reign in the New Heavens and New Earth!
     
  6. OldRegular

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    No one else can either; because it is not there!
     
  7. Yeshua1

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    Historical pre Mil does, as Spurgeon held to that view, and many Baptists, even those reformed held to in the past!
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    Yes there are, but you refuse to see them!
     
  9. evangelist6589

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    Rev 3:10 and passages in 1 Thes
     
  10. OldRegular

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    Then prove both Tom Butler and me wrong! You can't and neither can anyone else. I am sure Tom is expectantly holding his breath as I am! History on the verge of being made!
     
  11. OldRegular

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    Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    I believe Jesus Christ is talking to the Church at Philadelphia which is no longer there. Now there are Churches in Philadelphia, Pa. but I don't believe HE was talking to them.

    As for
    you need be more specific!
     
  12. RLBosley

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    This is really two issues:

    Dispensationalism vs a form of covenantalism
    pre-trib vs post-trib

    Historic pre mill is both non-dispensational and post-trib.

    I hope you see that but I'm not sure you do, since you seem to be fully in agreement with a form of dispensationalism (a la MacArthur). So when you say you think historic premill may be a valid alternative, I think you may be referring only to a post-trib dispensationalism, though I hope you are also open to abandoning dispensationalism.

    Anyway...

    Mostly I moved to historic pre mill when I saw that scripture in no way supports the dispensational system and then realized the scripture points to a single coming event, not a rapture and second coming separated by 7 years. Tom Butler is right, nothing in scripture unmistakably points to a pre trib gathering of the elect.

    Since the dispensationalism horse is currently being beaten to death in a couple threads I'll just focus on the timing of the rapture:

    The only view that makes sense of the scripture is a single post-trib rapture at the Second Coming.

    1Th 4:15-17 HCSB - For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord's coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel's voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.​

    Jesus returns and all the Christian dead are raised and the living believers are glorified together. The gospels, the epistles and Revelation all specify that the resurrection of believers is at the very end of the age, not seven years before the end. If pre-tribulationism is true then there must be multiple resurrections of believers, at least 2, one at the rapture then one again at the end of the tribulation. But we only see one resurrection for believers, at Christ's glorious appearing at the end of the age.

    Also this does not say anything about what happens afterward except that we will never again be separated from the Lord. There is nothing here that explicitly says Jesus does or doesn't come to earth or return to Heaven, though the word used for "meet" referring to our meeting Christ in the air indicates that he continues to the earth with the believers escorting/accompanying him.

    1Co 15:50-52 HCSB - Brothers, I tell you this: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption. Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. ​

    This return and our gathering to Christ occurs at the last trumpet, not a trumpet a couple years before 7 more trumpets.

    Mat 24:29-31 HCSB - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken. "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. ​

    That's just obvious.
     
    #12 RLBosley, Aug 14, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2014
  13. OldRegular

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    Excellent post brother. I hope you cleared up some things for evangelist6589. I am amillennial myself but have no real problem with historic premillennialism since I believe they have the correct view of the Church. It is not a parenthesis in God's program for Israel!
     
  14. RLBosley

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    Thank you sir. I tentatively hold to historic premill, but amill does have some good arguments. But as you indicated, the two sides don't (at least shouldn't) have any problem with each other as we agree on church and really we agree on much of the eschaton itself.
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    But the dominent position within earth church was pre Mil until Augustine made A mil a viable option, despite there is really no biblcal support for it!
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    Dispy such as myself and many others do NOT see the Church as God going to plan B when ireal rejected messiah!

    As that rejection was already purposed and known to God to happen, and the church as always in his plans , due to the Cross!

    Your view would be same as saying that the new covenant was ushered in only due to isreal rejecting jesus...
     
  17. RLBosley

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    Yes, but specifically it was Historic Pre-mill not the dispensational variety. That was unheard of. There is some evidence that there were a-mill and post-mill adherents pre-Augustine as well.
     
  18. OldRegular

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    There is a Scriptural basis for both the historic premillennial and the amillennial position. I prefer the amillennial position. There is zero Scriptural basis for the pre-trib rapture and the parenthesis Church.
     
  19. OldRegular

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    That does not alter the fact that classic dispensationalist scholars/theologians teach a parenthesis Church or that the Church is an intercalation in God's program for Israel. The Church for which Jesus Christ died I must add. Furthermore, can you present Scripture showing where Jesus Christ died for national Israel!

    From an earlier post, on another thread, I got the impression you thought Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God, was in a learning mode.

    The New Covenant was initiated by the death of Jesus Christ and that is a fact of Scripture.
     
  20. Greektim

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    Get on this train... you'll be Amil before long!!!
     

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