Hitler's Pope

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Martin, Apr 4, 2007.

  1. Martin

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    Last night my Holocaust professor mentioned a book by John Cornwell called "Hitler's Pope". In this book Cornwell asserts that Pope Pius XII was not just silent during the early years of the Nazi Holocaust but that Pius actually did things that aided the Nazis.

    I looked it up on amazon and thought it looked interesting. I don't know when or if I would actually sit down and read this book, since I don't have a great interest in the holocaust, however since I am interested in Church History this might be a book I should at least look at.

    Btw, my professor did not endorse the book. While he believes that Pius XII's activities during the Holocaust raise some important questions he did not go so far as to suggest that Pius was "Hitler's Pope".
     
  2. Martin

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    Ok, don't everyone respond at once. :laugh:

    Nobody has read this book? Or at least has an opinion of the book?
     
  3. combo_limit

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    Sorry, but I've never heard of said book.
     
  4. Melanie

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    blah.....I hope you get hold of a book that documents the Jewish lives Pope Pius xii assisted......this good man has been much slandered, please remember too that Hitler interned a good many Catholic men and women and those in the religious life.....no Pope would endorse the actions of a political leader that so treated these folk......

    I will try to locate something suitable which you may care to get hold of...:thumbs:
     
  5. Martin

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    Pope Pius XII

    I am aware of the fact that the author of this book, John Cornwell, is not exactly painting a favorable picture of Pope Pius XII. However I do believe that it is important to note that when he started his project his goal was to defend Pius. His research lead him to the opposite conclusion (ie...that Pius should not be defended). From what I have read on this, and I admit it is very little, it seems to me that Pius may not have fully understood the magnitude of the crisis. I recently read an article, by a holocaust scholar, that made this assertion. I would love to read "Hitler's Pope" however I don't see myself even purchasing a copy for some time. I am really backed up on my personal reading and I have a two page "wish" list of books I want to purchase and read. However this is really a very interesting subject that I have been curious about for some time.
     
  6. Rufus_1611

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    It's a very interesting topic Martin and I thank you for pointing out the book as I will be adding it to my wish list, though I have a similar issue as the one you described, with a longer list of books than time to read. A shorter read is the concordant that Pius XI's people signed with Hitler which, by most accounts, contributed greatly to giving the Hitler gov't recognition throughout the world. More than one Pope appeared to have concord with Belial.
     
  7. mima

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    I do not believe anything good can be said about Pope Pius X II and his relationship with the Jewish people. I have seen the book I actually started reading the book but failed to complete it. To gain a better idea of Pope Pius X II and the Jewish nation you had to look no farther than how long it took the RCC to recognize the Jewish nation of Israel.
     
  8. Eliyahu

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    This is not surprising at all to those who know about the Catholic.


    Here are some sites for you to look at:

    1. Nazis Photo which shows the catholic involvement

    http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

    2. Pius 12 and the Holocaust

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html


    3. Balkan masacres also prove that Vatican was involved in the killings.

    http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/pavelic.htm

    4. What if Hitler remained as an Artist

    http://www.adolfthegreat.com/Trails-Talent/artist-maxi.html

    5. Adolf Hitler drew Nudes and women but I think he was strong in Landscapes and Scenery, and dogs.

    http://www.hitler.org/art/nudes/

    http://www.hitler.org/art/landscapes/

    http://www.hitler.org/art/dogs/

    6. Where did Hitler get this Christianity from?

    http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

    7. But we must recognize that there must be a certain support from Lutheran for the Holocaust as well because their father was like the following, though the main power train for the Holocaust was the Roman Catholic, including the devout Roman Catholic Himler.

    http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

    Some of the excerpts are here:

    “The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows, seven times higher than ordinary thieves.”

    “We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them.”

    “The blind Jews are truly stupid fools.”

    “Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people.”

    “…eject them forever from this country.”

    “They are nothing but thieves and robbers.”

    “What then shall we do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?”

    “Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews.”

    “They are the real liars and bloodhounds.”

    “We are at fault for not slaying them.”

    “I shall give you my sincere advice: first to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever see a stone or a cinder of them.”

    “Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed.”

    “Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews.”

    “Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, for them to work, and deal harshly with them.”

    “If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs.”

    “If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the river Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words, ‘I baptize thee in the name of Abraham.’”

    ( Sorry, I don't intend to hijack the thread)


    Yes, some Protestants and some Catholics were killed by Nazis as well, but those Catholics were not loyal to the Catholic theories and doctrines but they followed their conscience, not the Catholic.
     
    #8 Eliyahu, Apr 11, 2007
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2007
  9. Bismarck

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    According to the historical-fiction book Poland by J.A.Michener:


    the RCC aided the Nazi holocaust in Poland by voluntarily opening up its marriage records so that the Nazis could identify those with Jewish blood. I have not read this elsewhere.

    I think that it is not fair to condemn Lutherans. Lutherans resisted the extremes of the Nazi regime. For example, the famous Sophie Scholl was a Lutheran. She was executed on 22 Feb 1943 by guillotine. Today, her bust adorns the Walhalla Temple in Bavaria. Here is a recent movie about her:


    If there are specific examples of Lutheran ties to Nazism, I would like to know.
     
  10. Ps104_33

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    In all fairness to pope pius the XII, and anyone who knows me around here knows that I am no proponent of Roman Catholicism, Hitler had everyone fooled except Winston Churchill and everyone though he was a warmonger. Sound familiar?
     
  11. Eliyahu

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    Good point to remember.

    There might have been sevral Lutherns among Hitler's Henchmen such as Koch, and Shemm. For the details we can refer to the site

    http://www.nobeliefs.com/henchmen.htm

    I don't say Lutheran eagerly volunteered to assist Nazis, but there might have been a certain consensus among the Germans, even including the average Lutherans since we can notice Luther himself cultivated such Anti-semitisim. But I agree that what Lutheran did must be incomparable to RCC, and in that sense I have no objection to your assessment.
     
    #11 Eliyahu, Apr 12, 2007
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2007
  12. Colin

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    Hi there,
    there seem to be 2 real questions in this thread, (1), did the Pope support Hitler, and (2), how did the Pope respond to the Holocaust.
    I recently did my masters research thesis on the second question (looking at the roles of the churches accross Europe in the Holocaust), and would be happy to send it to any interested. Quick summary, both the Catholic and the German protestant churches aided in the Holocaust, generally for their own reasons. The Catholic churches across Europe generally defended their own converts from Judaism better than the Protestant churches, both churches supported boycotts, exclusions and even deportations of Jews in general, and then became more quiet as the mass killings took place. The Catholic church did not pass on any of the appeals for help, and information it recieved about the Holocaust, even though it was asked to repeatedly. In Germany both churches filled out forms which enabled the Nazis to identify Jews, even when they knew this would lead to their death. Both Catholic and Protestant leaders supported this policy, and the Catholics complained they were not paid for it.
    Not a happy history, but a real need for repentance.
    God bless, Colin
     
  13. Eliyahu

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    Catholic support for Nazis and Holocaust was much, much more than any Protestant group's. If anyone doesn't know it, s/he is ignroant about the history. Any Protestants involved in Nazis might be the extended or reformed Roman Catholic.
    What Hitler did against Jews was what Catholic used to do throughout the history, such as the killings of Jews during the Crusade etc.
    Vatican praised Third Reich is the true and first Catholic Utopia.
    The relationship between Vatican and Hitler was similar to that between Harlot and the Beast in the Revelation.
     
  14. 4Given

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    the MYTH of Hitler's Pope

    I suggest that you read the Rabbi David Dalin's book "The Myth of Hitler's Pope". Well documented from contemporary sources, it demonstrates that - contrary to popular belief - the Pope did everything in his power to save as many people as he could. Many prominate Jewish leaders, such as Golda Meir praised his efforts. The notion that the Pope was an ally of Hitler started in a fictional play, and was carried on from there.

    At the very least, Rabbi Dalin's book will give you an alternate view of what the Jewish people of the time, and shortly after the war, actually thought about the Pope.

    I think that we forget that the Pope does not have armies with guns and tanks at his command. Priests don't carry guns. There was really not a lot he could do to overtly resist the Third Reich. He had to work behind the scenes to save as many people as possible. The Vatican was surrounded by Mussolini's Axis troops. Despite this, many Jewish people were smuggled into the Vatican for shelter. Many lived at the Pope's private retreat for safety. Many more Jewish people were evacuated from Germany and other countries via an underground railroad of Catholics and other Christians. The Vatican helped many of these people escape by providing fake documents. Many priests, nuns, and monks perished in the Holocaust simply for being Catholic Christians. Hitler didn't just hate the Jews - he hated Christians. Think of what Corrie Ten Boom suffered in the concentration camps - taken because she and her family hid Jews in their home.

    Maximillian Kolbe was a Catholic priest who gave his life so another could live. He suffered a slow, agonizing death in a pit in the ground - dying of starvation and dehydration. If the Pope supported Hitler, and had influence over him, why wouldn't he demand that the priests be released from the death camps?

    Read "The Myth of Hitler's Pope". You'll be surprised.
     
  15. Eliyahu

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    You are very much naive, or trying to deceive the people!
    If you don't know that Roman Cathlolic is the Mother of the Harlot, and the Pope is the Anti-Christ, you have not read the Bible properly.

    Why do the Catholic continue to deceive the people by Idolatry?

    Isn't Catholic pagan Idol religion? If you don't know this, you are not Christian yet!

    I don't think you opened up these sites yet, or spiritually blinded, and therefore cannot see the photos!

    I post it for you again!
    Here are some sites for you to look at:

    1. Nazis Photo which shows the catholic involvement

    http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

    2. Pius 12 and the Holocaust ( apologetics for Pope)

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...tism/pius.html


    3. Balkan masacres also prove that Vatican was involved in the killings.

    http://www.blessedquietness.com/jour...hu/pavelic.htm

    4. What if Hitler remained as an Artist

    http://www.adolfthegreat.com/Trails-...tist-maxi.html

    5. Adolf Hitler drew Nudes and women but I think he was strong in Landscapes and Scenery, and dogs.

    http://www.hitler.org/art/nudes/

    http://www.hitler.org/art/landscapes/

    http://www.hitler.org/art/dogs/

    6. Where did Hitler get this Christianity from?

    http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

    RCC preserved about a thousand Jews ( who may be already Catholic!, not the pure Jews), to show their hypocrisy!

    My friends who are the Messianic Jews never forget that Vatican has been always the Enemy of God!
     
    #15 Eliyahu, Apr 14, 2007
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
  16. Eliyahu

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    [FONT=&#46027]Letter from The Former Late President of the United States Mr. Harry Truman to Pope Pio XII.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&#46027]Washington D.C.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&#46027]Dear Mr. Pacelli: As A member of the Baptist Church and Executive[/FONT][FONT=&#46027]
    Chief of this Great Nation, and the more powerful nation in the whole world. Everyone call me Mr. Truman. I can not call you, "Holiness" this title belongs only to the Creator of the Universe. We also in the United States consider all men are equal in the eyes of the Creator and we call them by their own names.
    For the same reason I must address you as Mr. Pacelli.
    The people that elected me as their Executive Chief, are a peace loving people and a democratic nation. For this reason my duty is to find collaboration
    from those that are in reality looking for peace and are working to obtain peace and not from those pushing for war. I believe that yourself and neither your church are included with those that are truly working for peace. First, the founding Fathers of this great nation knew that throughout history, the nature of your church is love for politics and war. They consented as a principle of our government, not to allowed your church to be involved in our internal affairs. They learned this too well from the History in Europe. We are
    convinced that our democracy will not last if we get in the mixture of all of your doctrines and intrigue, as the governments of Europe did.
    We know that you yourself and the Kaiser were part of the intrigue created against the Allies during the First War World. You also spent 12 years in Germany during the ascension on Hitler to power. You also negotiated with
    the execrable Fritz Von Papen a double Pope to help Hitler to power, as you signature is found Eugenio Cardinal Pacelli along with Hitler signature in the concordant between the Vatican and the Third Reich in 1933.
    Nobody is going to believe that you were ignorant of the plot Hitler and his Nazis got under way against us. The number one catholic biographer said referring about yourself "The more well informed man in the Reich".
    After that Von Papen and yourself signed the concordant which blessed Hitler with 'holy-water' and gave him the needed push to power. Your colleague Von Papen after he escape from the gallows by an inch, boasted as follow:
    "The Third Reich is the first power that not only recognized, but put into practice the high principles of the papacy".
    Your cardinals and bishops in Rome blessed the weapons used against the defenseless Ethiopians. Cardinal Schuter of Milan proclaimed the annexation of Ethiopia as a holy-crusade to bring to Ethiopia in triumph the cross of Christ.
    And after all of these, Can you still call your church the church of God? Also, Do you pretend that I still see you as superior to me and superior to the people of the United States?, You are using sweet words to talk about justice and at the same time playing the drums of war calling for another war more terrible and destructive that the two past wars against Russia, which helped us to defeat Hitler and Mussolini.
    You are inciting the United States to rush into building diabolic and detestable regimes, You want us to waste our money, and to send our young people to a horrible death over the remains of Hitler and Mussolini to finish the work they started with your help after we defeated them. Yes, the United States longs for peace. From all the nations we still have some prosperity, and decency, as we are the bastion for democratic freedom. If we, as protestant England get weak and loose our substance, your "catholic culture" will have another opportunity to govern the world again. You can easily after get an alliance with Russia against us, if we were to loose, or fall weak after a war of that nature.
    Your predecessor pope Pio XI declared publicly, 'For the interest of the church, I will go as far as getting a concordant with the devil' For these reason Mr. Pacelli is my duty as the head of this protestant nation, to reject this adventure disguised as a peace treaty. "Those eating in the same dish as the Devil, must use a very long spoon". I will continue working for peace as a member of the Baptist Faith, holding and working with honorable protestant principles, as they have made our nation so great.
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&#46027]Yours Sincerely[/FONT][FONT=&#46027]
    Harry Truman.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&#46027]From the Magazine: Revista Nacional de Informacion y Cultura Occidental #118 Mayo-Junio 1959 pp 30-32 Santiago the Chile.(Translated back to English)[/FONT]
     
  17. Eliyahu

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  18. 4Given

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    A question for you

    Are you interested in finding the truth about history and the role of the Pope in World War II, or are you merely interested in denigrating the Catholic Church? I am interested in finding the truth, and in a search for the truth, whether in religion or history, I find it useful to look at both sides of the story. In referring to the original topic of this thread, I suggested that you read a book by a rabbi - who is not a Catholic - called "The Myth of Hitler's Pope." He says that this is not true, and that the Pope did all he could to help the Jews. You can believe what he says or not.

    I do know that the the author of "Hitler's Pope" is biased against Catholics, so I would take what he writes with a grain of salt. I also know that the sites that you reference are all anti-Catholic, so I would take that into consideration in my search for the truth. You are only presenting one side of the story. I think that you should look at what the other side is saying.

    I read the letter that was supposedly written by Harry Truman. I'm sorry, but that letter is fake. Here are links from the "American Presidency Project" to actual letters that Truman wrote to Pius XII and the Pope's response.
    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=12746&st=Pius+XI&st1=

    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=13372&st=Pius+XI&st1=


    The Concordant with Germany in 1933 was merely an agreement to disband the Catholic Center Party in exchange for a guarantee for Catholic religious freedom - and that agreement was immediately violated by Hitler, the chancellor of Germany. In 1933, Hitler was the legitimately elected head of state. No one knew the monster that he would become. It was not an endorsement of the Nazis - the RCC knew that the Nazis were opposed to Catholic religion, social teaching, and philosophy. It was merely an attempt to protect the religious freedom of the RCC in Germany and - as history shows us - failed - as the Nazis proceeded to persecute both the Catholics (by closing their religious houses and imprisoning their members) and the Jews.

    In 1937 on Palm Sunday, the Pope issued a document called "With Burning Anxiety" that was read in every Catholic Church in Germany. In it, the pope listed the Nazi's violations of the concordant, affirmed Christianity's roots in Judaism, reminded the people that we are all children of God, whatever race or nation, and condemned the neo-paganism of the Nazis and their "mad prophet" - Hitler. The Pope concluded that against this (the Nazis) "There is but one alternative left, that of heroism."

    In response, Hitler declared, "The Third Reich does not desire a modus vivendi with the Catholic Church, but rather its destruction with lies and dishonor, in order to make room for a German Church in which the German race will be glorified."

    I don't believe Hitler was a Christian. Do you? Even if he had been raised in the RCC, he certainly didn't practice any Christian religion as an adult. If I was raised as a Muslim, yet didn't practice that religion as an adult, could I still be considered Muslim? Or if I was rasied in the religion of Islam, yet converted to Christianity as an adult, would I still be considered Muslim in your eyes? If I was raised as a Baptist, yet didn't practice that religion from the time of my teens, and commited horrible crimes, would you still consider me to be a Baptist?

    It's very interesting that you would presume that I am not a Christian simply because I suggested that the whole story of Pius collaborating with the Nazis is anti-Catholic propaganda - like some of the websites that you provide to "prove" your point. Some of those websites are not even by Christian people. They even say that Hitler "practiced his own brand of Christianity" and was against the Catholic Church. So basically some of the sites refute your own point. You should do your own research. Try a library for starters. Read a book.
     
    #18 4Given, Apr 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2007
  19. rsr

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    You realize, of course, that the "letter" is probably a hoax. You will indeed find letters from Truman to Pius, but nothing like what is contained in this missive. The president does indeed call Pius "Your Holiness," BTW.

    - Letter to Pope XII, August 1947.

    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=12746
     
  20. rsr

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    If you'll look, you'll notice many pictures of the "German Christians," who were Lutheran, and Reich Bishop Ludwig Müller, another Lutheran. The Berlin Cathedral, where Göring was married, is a Protestant church.

    There is plenty of blame to go around - inside and outside Germany - for the horrors of the Third Reich.
     

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