HIV child rejected

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by gerald285, Jul 8, 2007.

  1. gerald285

    gerald285
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    A couple who checked into a recreational vehicle park with their 2-year-old foster son were told the boy couldn't use the showers, pool or other common areas because he has the HIV virus.
    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3355418&page=1&GMA=true

    How would you handle this? Was the park owners correct? More important how would your church handle this or how do you hope that they handle this type of situation if the child's parents wanted to leave him/her in your church day care with other children?

    You can read the full story at the link above, but here is what the CDC says;
    The HIV virus is not transmitted through day-to-day activities such as shaking hands, hugging or a casual kiss, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    Now here is my take on this. This disease while difficult to transmit still can be transmitted under certain circumstances such a cut and blood. Knowing how children play and interact If there is ANY possible way for another child to get this in daily contact then I would not want any child to be in direct contact with one who has HIV. This includes church day care and church nurseries. I don't even want my child in the same room with another child with a cold, much less one that has HIV! In my opinion it is totally selfish and uncaring for the health of others when any parent brings a child to be in contact with other children when there is ANY possibility of contacting that or any other disease! I feel that the park owners did correctly. I am not against making a separate place to handle such a child where there is no contact with others who do not already have this disease and allow anyone who wants to care for them to be allowed, but never in with the regular population of children. Like I said even if there is only one chance on a million I would not want them with my child in a day setting. How should the church deal with these things and does your church have a policy on such?
    What do you say?
     
  2. Scarlett O.

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    Apples and oranges. The common cold is airborn and can be transmitted by simply drinking after one another or coughing/sneezing in the same room as someone.

    HIV is not.

    Are you aware of how many people that you and your children have already been around that are HIV positive and you just didn't know it?

    I've been with HIV positive people before. As long as you don't have sex with them or take an open sore on your body and press it against an open sore on their body, you are fine.

    If HIV were transmitted by casual contact, then we would all have it by now.

    How should the church deal with these "things"?

    Well, according to our track record, we are just sticking our heads in the sand like we usually do.

    My opinion is that if the church knows that a child is HIV positive and wants a "policy", then a caretaker (grandmother, uncle, dad, big sister) should accompany the child to the daycare or Sunday School primarily to ease the troubled minds of other parents, but also to take care of him or her in case he or she scratches him or herself and needs a bandaid since no one else will give him or her aid.

    If that won't work, then they could always excommunicate them from the church.
     
  3. ShagNappy

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    You just about have to want HIV to get it. Having OCD, and being germaphobic out the wazoo, I can tell you I have done lots of research into how HIV is spread. There is no reason to be worried about HIV being spread in a pool. However, small children already have problems with illnesses, add in a compromised immune system and there is greater concern over other health issues. Example: A child died from ecoli contracted in a huge wave pool at a local water park after a child's diaper leaked in the pool. My concern would be a 2 year old, most likely still in diapers or pull-ups, having something of more concern because of the HIV that could be spread from a leaky diaper.

    But using the excuse HIV only is pretty absurd. Regardless of the setting. The HIV virus lives such a short time out of the body you really do have to try to get it. There has been at least one case of an HIV infected person, wounded in an accident with a friend, who bled into an open wound of said friend and the virus was not spread.
     
  4. Scarlett O.

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    Gerald, I worried all through church that the tone of my post was a little on the smart-alec side.

    Part of it was and it is too late to edit it.

    My life has been dedicated to working with children and I always seem to find myself championing for those that has no champion. I get riled up over children's issues.

    I'm sorry for posting a smart-retort in my above post.
     
  5. DQuixote

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    The problem isn't with the child, it is with the uninformed members of the church or school or wherever crowds gather. There was gruesome fear among emergency responders (police, fire, ambulance) when HIV first reared its ugly head. OSHA mandated many requirements for their protection. That was back in the 80's. Things have calmed down considerably since then, many of the protective measures have been abandoned or are now being ignored. That does not mean that we should throw caution to the winds, but my office secretary who was afraid to breathe, afraid to use the restroom, afraid to touch anything outside her own home, is representative of our original fears. However, having said that, I'm afraid that the bottom line is this: If you want to panic a bunch of SBC folks, bring an HIV-positive child to church.
     
  6. mcdirector

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    You know what, this is probably as true as it's gonna get. AND that breaks my heart.

    The fact of the matter is that it's not about our health or the health of our children but about the health of our souls and when we start putting our physical health above that of our spiritual health, well it's a slippery slope.
     
  7. rbell

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    How did Jesus handle lepers?
     
  8. abcgrad94

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    The park owners were probably terrified they would lose business (aka money) and possibly face a lawsuit by some nut claiming to have contracted HIV while in the park. I can see that happening in our lawsuit-happy society. Something like that could completely shut down their whole income. While their actions probably were not in the best interest of the child, they were probably only trying to protect their business from ruin.

    As far as having an HIV-infected child at church I wouldn't have a problem with him coming and sitting in church. I would draw the line if the child was about 2 years old and biting other children in the nursery, or if he were badly behaved and doing inappropriate things that put other people at risk. But, I don't want ANY child biting or causing injury to others, regardless of the HIV factor.
     
  9. Bro. James Reed

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    I can see the point about worries from rough little kids who are subject to frequent cuts and scrapes and possibly spreading it to their playmates. Of course, I'd also say that there is a better chance that the babysitter left in charge of your child will beat or molest them before an HIV infected child will spread the disease to them.

    If HIV is that easy to spread, I would have long ago been infected. I have a female cousin who has been HIV+ for some 15 or so years. Her husband cheated on her and brought it home. She has two children, who now must be checked every 6 months for signs of the virus, and she must take the "cocktail" in order to try and ward off infection. I hug and kiss her and her kids whenever I see them and have no qualms about it. And I am a nut about cleanliness. (My mother caught hepatitis when I was a toddler from food that had been handled by a person who had not washed after the bathroom) I was raised with that fear that anything and everything has germs and soap and water are mandatory after handling anything. I wash my hands at least 15 times a day; after handling the t.v. remote, this keyboard, putting on my shoes, after using the bathroom (sometimes twice in a row then, with hot water), and after just about anything else I do.

    If I am not worried about it, I don't see how anyone else could be.

    If you think a common pool/shower might be infected, just think the next time you go to the ocean, or the lake, or the river, just how many people with all sorts of diseases have been in there. Just think of all the sewage and other waste is in there as well. Just think of all the filthy pollutants that you breathe in everyday.

    (Btw, my cousin that I mentioned has been having a very rough time of it lately. She has not been making enough red blood cells, and the doctors think she may have developed Leukemia. Please pray for her. Her children are both young teenagers and their daddy died last year from AIDS.)
     
  10. menageriekeeper

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    Sheesh! I'm almost speechless.

    First off, this isn't an education problem it's a willing ignorance problem and it's two-fold.

    First off, why did the foster parent see fit to tell anyone about the child's condition. As far as I can see, there was no reason for the park owners to have any need for that sort of information any more than they need to know if someone has strep throat. (infinately more contagious) I also have a question about whether the child's right to privacy was violated since it is in state custody, hence the emphasis on the word foster.

    Second, HIV info is readily available in this state as backward as folk think we might be. This is willful ignorance. If there had been doubt the park owners could very well have called the local health department and quickly found this poor child was no threat at all. Why do think they put clorine in the pool? :rolleyes:

    As for these children in church, how do you deal with any contagious child? You wash hands and spray lysol(or better yet, a mix of clorine and water). Buy gloves for you workers to use in diaper changing if you or they want extra protection. As has already been stated HIV doesn't last long outside of the body. If you have a biter, then you request that mom and dad keep the little precious with them during church, HIV or no. Here again, how does anyone think they could ever know that a child has HIV? It's not usually something people advertise. (this particular ditz of a mother aside)

    Things like this irritate me, can you tell?
     
  11. Allan

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    What is it with people bashing SBC?
    If you want to panic ANY church group bring an HIV-positive child/adult to church.
    It is not a SBC thing but an ignorance or misinformed PUBLIC thing, including ALL churches!

    I remember an IFB church closing their children sunday school because they didn't want the children exposed but didn't want to ostrisize the child (like that didn't!) However, I don't go around saying IFB is afraid to allow HIV children or adults into their churches. THAT would be a LIE.

    Get over your prejudice.
     
    #11 Allan, Jul 8, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2007
  12. mcdirector

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    Allan, maybe he DQ is SBC. I am, so when I read his post, that's what I thought. That's what I know.

    I sure didn't think prejudice.

     
  13. Jim1999

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    I heard a doctor speaking on radio yesterday about how long the HIV virus and HepC can live on the hand, and she talked about 8 days, and then emphasized the importance of washing the hands regularly with soap and water. HIV can survive in a syringe for over 6 months because of the environment.

    I am not afraid of dealing with infected people, but I am cautious, and careful about washing hands afterwards.

    I can understand the concern at the church nursery. I am not sure what I would do about it, but caution would be the word of the day.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  14. Joe

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    Often people cut themselves when camping, it is a rougher type vacation. If this two year old bled into the showers while your child was standing there (possibly with a slight open wound and didn't mention it) and your child got AIDS, you would think differently. Maybe the blood would just be a few drips but that is all that is needed.

    Of course, showering in a camping type enviornment where kids are playing in the forest getting cuts and bruises will increase the risk.

    We had two HIV positive friends who moved last year (a former employee). We went on vacation with them, and we chose not to use the hot tub with them. though it would likely turn out fine. They were fine with it. This does not equal treating someone like a leper but remember that there are many ways blood can interact with your blood, not just the "generalized" situations medical science came up with.

    I would have kept the child's condition quiet, let the child use the showers but washed it with bleach right after just to be safe...This is how they handled it when they use Motel Rooms.
     
    #14 Joe, Jul 8, 2007
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  15. windcatcher

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    May I say 'Magic Johnson' positive for HIV and still played basketball?

    From 80--02 I worked in a hospital, with yearly seminars talking about this stuff (once it became known as to agent, transmission, and contact): As a part of this process, while I knew which patients had HIV and which did not, there was no reason for discrimination in contact with them or for them with each other. We already had policies in place regarding 'conjugal' relationships (for patients..... not staff). The same precautions regarding blood spillage and safety, regarded all, not just those positively identified with HIV. And the truth is, if you know already that a person is positive with HIV, you will most likely take whatever precautions necessary for transmission, but the precautions should be taken anyway. Its not who you know, but who you don't know. And it may take 6 months or more after transmission before a test turns positive.

    I don't understand the campgrounds 'need to know' and it seems like an invasion of the childs' privacy rights, and that the foster parents might have had a 'hidden agenda' in disclosing this information unnecessarily.

    The HIV child is in more danger of his own compromised immune system of catching some mild contagion which his body can't fight than to give his own disease to another...... much as a luekemia patient might be compromised by exposure to mild infections and 'common colds'.

    Truth is that anyone responding to an emergency or accident, should have training and knowledge of and take the universal precautions to prevent contact or exchange of bodily fluids whenever possible. There are diseases more easily contracted through close contact.... like tuberculosis, and some which are silent killers like the hepatitis varieties.

    Based upon the limited info in the op I feel the park managers were excessive in their demands and restrictive and fearful, but in their rights to choose once some knowledge was openly available to them. On the other hand, I don't understand the necessity of the family letting them know about the child as normal precautions should have sufficed anyway.

    As for misinformation: I have not read nor heard anything that suggest HIV survives 6 months out of the body. Hepititis is another story.... but heppititis is not HIV. It's like the other myth that sexually transmitted disease is caught off toilets: What business does one have in making contact between privates and toilets? Sitting properly on a seat avoids such contact..... and also avoids leaving filth for another to clean up. I really believe some myths continue as a way of explaining away to an unknowledgeable person or a 'I want to believe him/her spouse' the consequence of a inclandestined exposure without disclosing the real deed that caused it.

    FYI: Universal precautions consist of using gloves anytime cleaning up bodily fluids/waste. (But not for helping a kid blow his nose!) Cleaning up blood spills and splatter with a chlorine/water solution and discarding in separate waste. Disposal of all needles (such as typically used for insulin or allergy shots) ...... and could include razor blades, in a sharps container. And using a mask when performing CPR, which might be necessary in a swimming environment.
    There may be other precautions, but these are the ones I recall.

    A child in daycare or nursery? Unlikely problem unless he is a biter and then all biters should have the same requirement......... they stay with their parent or their parent stays with them until they move beyond this stage. In which case, their welcome and encouragement to attend should be impressed, as the purpose is not to isolate the family from fellowship or worship, but to attend to a young one's behavior problem.



    As Christians, we have a major disease to fight against: It's the disease of the soul, and it is fear. The disease of fear is caused by the virus called doubt. We can feed it by feasting on rumours and indulging in vainful imaginations, or we can fight it with the Word of Scripture, prayer, and the belief in God that 'whatever' he works things for our good because we trust him, and seek after knowledge.....not rumour.


    edited to highlight.
     
    #15 windcatcher, Jul 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2007
  16. Allan

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    So you see the SBC (as a whole) being HIV+ phobic??

    Please verify this in ANY way.

    Some churches, regardless of demonination could and may even be, but to say the whole of the SBC - Come on!
     
  17. Hope of Glory

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    Don't forget the European basketball star that was was diagnosed with HIV about a year or so ago who acquired it from banging heads with an HIV positive player. Of course, "you can't get it that way", and it's just so unfair to discriminate against the person who has it that we can't make him quit playing. The virus can live for a long time outside the body, and when in the crystalline form, it can survive even bleach.
     
  18. mcdirector

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    Allan, I don't think this is an SBC issue. That's not at all what I said. What I was saying in my defense of DQ was that he probably slipped the SBC in there because that's what he is.

    I read it that way because that's what I am. I'm not taking any offense in DQ's mention of SBC (even though it's an issue for the entire church body). I'm not making more of the SBC than they are. I'm just saying I didn't read more into it's mention.

    It's a larger issue. I'm not trying to make it an SBC issue. I was just trying to defend a phrase that you picked up on that I thought probably didn't mean much in the great scheme of things.

    I'm not going to get into SBC politics here. That's not the purpose of this thread.

    AS I said in my first post here, when we start putting our physical health above our spiritual health, we have gone down a slippery slope. I don't want to go down that slope.
     
    #18 mcdirector, Jul 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2007
  19. Allan

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    That is fine and I agree.

    However, my retort was to his comment:
    This speaks to the people OF the SBC on the whole, and not particularly those with whom he is associated within his SBC church (if he is so affiliated). The comment at best was ill worded (which I can grant since I do it all to often)
    OR
    It was worded just that way intentionally speaking of the SBC on the whole.

    I will back off since I have said my peace and just wanted to clarify what "I" see.

    I was not meaning to bring a row over this, and I agree the SBC is not the issue. So if offence was given, please forgive my afront. I'm am sick of all the SBC bashing lately, and possibly did jump the gun to quickly. I'm sorry.
     
  20. mcdirector

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    I sure don't like for the SBC to get picked on either. I just like to give the benefit of the doubt whenever I can ;)

    When we only have words, and everyone isn't on line at the same time, it's just downright tough sometimes for clarification.

    I hope you have a wonderful day!
     

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