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Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Yelsew, Sep 24, 2003.
What difference would it make?
He commanded it.
We do it.
It's as simple as that.
No, actually it would be a great encouragement because it would ensure that there are disciples to be made. We are not trying to convince people by our own persuasiveness. We are working under the authority of Christ. This verse is a great encouragement and comfort to Calvinists, and to all others who make disciples as Christ commanded.
I can't see how your position reckons here. Christ says he has all authority in heaven and on earth. You say his authority stops at the door of the human heart. How can you have any hope of bringing someone to Christ when you have no authority and nothing but your own ability to convince them to understand and respond? I am glad that I do not preach from that kind of hopelessness. I am glad that the Christ who called us to make disciples has the authority to actually accomplish that.
And Jesus said to them, [Go ye therefore into all the world preaching the gospel so that those predetermined to believe, will!]
Right! What does God need man to go into all the world for? He commanded that man go forth making disciples. What for? in light of the truth that God is the Holy Spirit who regenerates "the elect only" so they can believe? There is no reason for man to do anything because man is hopelessly inept when it comes to spiritual things, you've said so yourself.
There is no reason for preaching since God must regenerate man before man can believe. UNLESS that is, man's belief comes from man's hearing the Word of God that the preacher is responsible to bring. Then the power is in the word, and not in the unbiblical declaration that man is regenerated before man believes.
The narrowness of your position makes it extremely weak and very suspect Larry.
This is a proof text of the elect. It is not the business of the church, nor of Gospel preachers to 'get people saved'. Christ did this on the Cross, 'it is finished.'
The business of the church/Gospel preachers is to preach and make disciples (students) observing all things that Christ has commanded.
When this realization comes to you, there are no such difficulties in this passage as to whether or not this or any part of Scripture is a hoax.
Why did you change the verse?? Are you that desperate??
Again, you show you have no idea what you are talking about wiht respect to our position. You once again misrepresent in order to support your point. You know that if you properly represented our position you would not be able to refute it. God command us to preach the gospel so that the elect will be saved (2 Tim 2:10). This is simple stuff. It is a shame you stoop to such levels.
Again, pure and simple foolishness on your part. The reason for preaching is so that man has something to believe. It is by the message preached that the unbelievers are saved. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to be sure. It is the Holy Spirit that illumines man's mind through regeneration so that he understands and responds.
The biblical-ness of my position is what makes it right. You don't respond with Scripture for the simple reason that you are unable. You stoop to making up straw men in hopes that the unknowledgeable will buy into it. The position that you call weak is the position that came from Scripture. Perhaps you are too mighty and powerful for the foolish things that God has chosen. But your inability to respond to our actual position is telling.
Remember, the general rule of thumb is "Say about your opponent what he would say about himself." Then respond to that. Anything less is unethical.
OK. Let me respond to some of your statements.
Then you are not doing what Paul did. He says on several occasions that he "persuaded" men. And in Acts there is one who heard Paul and said that he was "almost persuaded". Most Calvinistic theologians recognize that there is an appeal in the gospel to the human will. Apparently you do not (though strangely you try to persuade others on this board of your position).
Incorrect. Man has something to believe because Jesus died on the cross to save him. Preaching is to tell men the good news; that Christ died for him.
No, it is by the message preached that man comes to faith and is saved. Unbelievers are never saved.
This statement assumes your theological position but does not prove it. Can you show a place in scripture in which illumination and regeneration are connected in this way?
While I don't have a dog in this fight, seems to me that the scriptures DO have enough "contradicting" statements regarding this issue that it does not behoove any of you to be so dogmatic about your position.
My leanings are in line with Yelsew, but I refuse to say that "this is the only option!" I DO know that I'm not a scholar, & am conceding that I don't have all the answers, (like a few of you!?), so I accept that my understanding is faulty, and not what it will be at some future date. Meanwhile I'll believe as I see fit and grant you the same courtesy, whether you decide to respond in kind or not.
Oh, I don't plan to list all the above mentioned scriptures that are "contradictory"; they have been posted numerous times before, so if you want them bad enough, you can do a search!
My point here is that each side seems to quote only the scripture that boosts their view and to a large extent ignore the other. When all of it is taken together, there's a lack of definitiveness, IMHO, that precludes the "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality that rears it's ugly head on this & so many other topics.
One other point, as I can see some tempers rising!
"Contradictory" DOES NOT MEAN THAT I BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES C_O_N_T_R_A_D_I_C_T THEMSELVES! Simply put, there are some that appear to offer the (an) opposite meaning of others. This of course is due to imperfect knowledge!!!! OK??
Why did you change the verse?? Are you that desperate??</font>[/QUOTE]I stated the verse this way because it depicts the Calvinist point of view! And, I knew it would draw your attention.
The fallacy in the Calvinist stance is that it is exclusive, whereas God is not. God's only long established and continuing criteria for the Salvation of man is man's faith in Him, all 3 persons of Him.
It is through man's "God inspired effort" to comply with the commission of Matt 28 that God's Word is dissiminated across the face of the earth, into the outermost reaches of man kind. It is the Word that PERSUADES man to believe in Jesus. and it is man that believes unto regeneration! BELIEF PRIOR TO REGENERATION!
Again, you show you have no idea what you are talking about wiht respect to our position. You once again misrepresent in order to support your point. You know that if you properly represented our position you would not be able to refute it. God command us to preach the gospel so that the elect will be saved (2 Tim 2:10). This is simple stuff. It is a shame you stoop to such levels.</font>[/QUOTE]Excuse me if I don't agree!
Paul is not God! The book of 2 Timothy is Paul's "private" letter to a disciple named Timothy, and Not God's command to mankind. The letter may be inspired by God, but Paul is not relaying God's Words to mankind as the Prophets of old did in their writings using phrases such as "Thus sayeth the Lord". The onus is on you to provide that kind of prophetic utterance wherein God is credited with saying that the Apostles are to go into all the world making disciples of the ELECT. Jesus certainly did not say that in Matthew 28! Your simpleminded belief that Pauls letter to Timothy equates to a Command from God is the only simple thing about this Stuff! It is difficult and that is why the Holy Spirit provides the light for the truth!
2 Timothy 3:16
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
From: Gen. 1:1 To: Rev. 22:21
by HIS GRACE
A little bit of convenient misunderstanding on your part, but understandable because of the baggage you carry. Preaching is intended to convince and persuade. But the power is in the Spirit of God. Paul, in 1 Cor 2, talks of the very point I am making ... that he was careful with the words he used because he didn't want to persuade by his own ability but rather to demonstrate the power of the Spirit.
My point was that the power of the gospel works in the power of the Spirit to illumine minds and give faith and repentance. I preach the gospel and appeal to people to respond in faith and repentance. But I understand that the Holy Spirit must be working for it to be understood.
Is the topic here that Calvinism is a hoax, or that the Great commission is a hoax?
The original point was that Calvinism is a hoax.
That Jesus Christ who has been given all power and authority can not possibly know who the elect are.
It is the seed - root of Open Theism that is beginning to crop up in the Arminian side of this never-ending debate.
Thanks, now I have to start a thread asking "what is open theism?" I have heard it, but don't know it
Bro. Dallas [This is a wave, but if you catch him just right he is scratching his head ]
"Open theism, also known as free will theism and openness, is the teaching that God does not know all things. That is, He does not know the free will choices that people will make in the future because God either chooses not to know or because the future isn't knowable."
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