Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Sports' started by TomVols, Jul 18, 2007.
Jim Rice belongs in the Hall of Fame.
I am wishy-washy on Rice, but I won't cry foul if he gets in. Actually, I think he will be elected next year, along with Gossage (Gossage for sure, Rice might be close). Rice has very good hitting stats, but he was not a complete ballplayer. Poor fielder and slow as molasses. Never met a GIDP he didn't like.
The next few years pose the best period for some marginal guys to get in, because the only slam dunk becoming eligible soon is Rickey Henderson.
2008 will be interesting. Tim Raines becomes eligible in 2008. Pull up his stats, and you should be fairly impressed. However, I am guessing he will not be given much consideration. I could be wrong. I predict he gets between 25-40% of the vote in his first year, but I think he is more worthy than that. I'm not saying he should be in, but he needs to be given a long, hard look. Consider some of his stats:
85% success rate! (that might be the highest I've seen)
1571 runs scored!
.385 OBP (very good)
.425 SLG (good for a speedster)
Man, the more I look at it, I think Raines is a Hall of Famer. But playing for the Expos most of his career will hurt him. I could be wrong. What do you think?
You get no arguments from me on Jim Rice. I think he should be in. From what I can tell, there are 2 arguments against Rice.
#1, he excelled for a relatively short period of time. While that's true, Kirby Puckett made it into the Hall and he had a relatively short career also.
#2, he wasn't always nice to reporters. Big deal. Who really cares? This shouldn't be a consideration, but I don't doubt that it's part of the reason why he's not in.
It's past time for Rice to be in the Hall.
Rice was no Puckett. Puckett was a complete ballplayer. I'm not saying that every player in the Hall has to be "complete", but if you are going to make it in as a slugger, your slugger resume better be quite impressive. Think Reggie Jackson - 563 homers. Or Killebrew - 550-something homers. Rice is nowhere near that. He did hit for average, but his OBP was not great. Also remember that he played his entire career at Fenway. Rice is a very marginal Hall of Famer.
Well, Andy is beating me to the punch. I'll still do my spiel on these guys, though.
CCROB is right on both counts. We all know that sucking up to reporters gets you in since that's who votes. And the "Kirby factor" does weigh against Rice. That's why you compare players to those of their own era.
I wouldn't say Rice was an awful fielder. He was okay. Everyone I will argue for has roughly the same number of comparables.
Back to Andy's list. Among those who are not considered "slam dunks" but offered as candidates, I will argue (or have argued) for Blyleven, Gossage, Concepcion, Dale Murphy, Jim Rice. There are others I consider: Raines, Bill Buckner, Darrell Evans, Dwight Evans, Charlie Finley, Ron Guidry, Keith Hernandez, Tommy John, Roger Maris, Billy Martin, Craig Nettles, Vada Pinson, John McSherry,Luis Tiant, and Ted Simmons. I have no idea when I'm going to finish this
I find it interesting that you guys are in agreement on Puckett. Some are not so warm for Kirby. I have read some rather vocal opposition to him. In fact, the only other vehement protester against Davey (please let's not start that again) was a guy who argued that Kirby had fewer hits than Davey and thus should not be in the Hall.
Tom, I can tell we have fundamental differences on what the Hall is all about. When you think guys like Ron Guidry and Craig Nettles should be in Hall, then I can tell we are miles apart. You think the Hall is for the good. I think it is for the great.
I wasn't trying to make an argument for or against Puckett being in the Hall. I don't really know anything about his stats to say whether he should be there, and I don't have the inclination to look them pu.
My argument was that if longevity is the strike against Rice, then how can it not be against Puckett? On 2nd thought, this is not an argument I want to be making, so let's pretend that I said nothing in that regard.
I still don't have that much of a problem with Rice in the Hall.
Go back and read my quote. Did I say I was arguing for their inclusion, or that I was going to consider them I have read arguments for their inclusion. I will evaluate the arguments and give my opinion.
I wouldn't even consider them. Not a chance. It still shows our wide differences of what the Hall is. The fact that you would even listen to an argument for Craig Nettles puts us miles apart.
Andy, my friend, you aren't reading my posts.
People have argued for their inclusion. I am going to consider and evaluate their arguments. Some so-called serious baseball people have made these arguments. I'm going to either agree or debunk them.
I'll tell you right now that Nettles is not worthy and why people argue for him is beyond me. I'm going to demonstrate why he shouldn't be considered. But there's an interesting sidenote that I use in doing so that I bring up to illustrate a point about being careful to say someone is or is not a HOFer based on a qualifier. You'll have to wait for that one
In the meantime, pay more attention to what I'm saying :laugh: I like you Andy. You're a baseball guy. You should be having more fun with this. Relax :type:
O.k., we were using the word "consider" in different ways. I'm having fun. I'm not much of an emoticon guy, so sometimes my posts come across harsher than what they are meant to be. Sports are sports. Nothing to be taken seriously. :laugh: :wavey: :thumbs: :applause:
Yeah, I wasn't using "consider" the way you were. I should've picked a better word.
The typed word is weak in showing inflection (at least, in English). My apologies if I come across as anything other than congenial.
So what is your prediction for Raines in the '08 vote? It sounds like we both think he should be in, but I get this feeling that he won't do very well. I say he gets around 40%. Do you think he'll do better?
The name is Graig Nettles. BTW, How can one leave Jim Kaat off this list? IMO, a much stronger candidate than some you have listed.
Jim Kaat and Tommy John are almost identical when you look at their stats. Playing 25 years with more than half of those at C+/B- performance does not a Hall of Famer make.
That masy weel be true. However, overall I would suggest they are more HOF worthy, than say, Vada Pinson or Dwight Evans, or even Roger Maris. 61 HRs in a season, 275 for a career, and a .260 BA, and .476 slugging for a "slugger", does not HOF make, IMO, although all three were very good solid ballplayers. Rice 'slugged' at a .502 clip; Darell Evans at .431; Dwight Evans at .470, and Bill Buckner at .408, and Vada Pinson at .442. IMO, the two or three most worthy 'hitters' in this group are Raines, Dwight Evans, and Rice. And I might add Keith Hernandez, arguably the best fielding first sacker of all time. How about another to consider? Joe Adcock? Better stats than Maris or Darrell Evans, apart from, arguably, one season.
And how did 'Buck' O'Neil get left out of the Hall, and by the Veteran's Committee, no less? His batting credentials are sufficient, IMO. And just his many contributions to the game should count for something! If Buck O'Neil does not deserve inclusion, then none on the list should even be thought about for it! It is a crying shame that he never lived to see it in this life.
I agree completely. When I lived near KC I went to the Negro League Hall of Fame/Museum and got to talk to Mr. O'Neil for just a brief moment. He seemed like a super guy. It is a shame he did not get into the HOF while living.
His being on the Cmte probably hurt him. Maybe next time they'll put him in. Does anyone have any numbers for Buck?
My prediction is he will get that, maybe a tad more. Then he'll get less and less and fall through the floor. I don't think he'll get in. I think he's on the bubble in my mind. I'd put him in, but he's no slam dunk in my book. To me, Rock was feared. I dreaded seeing him come to the plate and just knew a walk or a single may as well have been a double. Watching him in person run the bases was a sight. Then again, I remember a night in Riverfront where he could jog around thanks to Wallach almost shattering the fair pole in the green seats in left field.