Hold Your Breath!

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by don 3426, Dec 14, 2004.

  1. don 3426

    don 3426
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Whats with other denomonations only sprinkling people im baptism and baptising babys. Baptism does not get you to heaven and your baby doesnet understand the meaning of it, whats the rush of baptising a baby? Baptism is soposed to be a public statement of faith and babys have not accepted christ yet they arent even old enough to understand.
    And what about sprinkling the greek word for baptism means imersion (all the way under the water) come on people eather hold your breath or dont do it at all. were is the symbolism of dumping a handfull of water on your head. the act of going under symbolises life death a nd reserection to a new person in faith.
     
  2. Littledrummerboy

    Littledrummerboy
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Don,

    The question arises as to whether or not baptism is only symbolic. Many Christians would say no, it is more. Many believe it is actually a new birth through the holy waters of Baptism, and because of that, even babies should be baptized as the new birth awaits even them.

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen
     
  3. Gina B

    Gina B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    16,944
    Likes Received:
    1
    It is the first step of obedience that one takes in their new Christian life.
    You're right, a baby doesn't understand it, so it's pretty much pointless.
    Sprinkle away, especially if there's a medical reason for non-immersion, but a newborn is really quite unable to participate in outward declarations and showings of their faith.
    Gina
     
  4. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Baptism is the NT counterpart of circumcism. It welcomes the person into the covenant community.
     
  5. don 3426

    don 3426
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    0
    what i had stated earlyer about baptism being symbolic is true and thats all it is. baptistm doesent save you. what was said about sprinkling for medical reason was a good point but churches should stick as close as possible to the scriptures and the scriptures say go under.
     
  6. Littledrummerboy

    Littledrummerboy
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Don,

    What about Christians that read scripture and get from scripture another interpretation? You must be careful in saying things like, "thats all it is," because the majority of Christians will disagree with you, and you had better be prepared to back up your claims.

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen
     
  7. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    There is only one interpretation of Scripture--God's. If you haven't found the correct interpretation of Scripture then you are wrong, and hold to some heresy--which you do. Baptismal regeneration is one of the oldest heresies known to Christendom.
    DHK
     
  8. Littledrummerboy

    Littledrummerboy
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Sorry, your beliefs and mannerisms have entered the "no fly" zone of this board.
    Gina

    [ December 15, 2004, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Gina L ]
     
  9. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    But they whose office it is, know that baptism is not rashly to be administered. "Give to every one who beggeth thee,"181 has a reference of its own, appertaining especially to almsgiving. On the contrary, this precept is rather to be looked at carefully: "Give not the holy thing to the dogs, nor cast your pearls before swine; "182 and, "Lay not hands easily on any; share not other men's sins."183 If Philip so "easily" baptized the chamberlain, let us reflect that a manifest and conspicuous184 evidence that the Lord deemed him worthy had been interposed.185 The Spirit had enjoined Philip to proceed to that road: the eunuch himself, too, was not found idle, nor as one who was suddenly seized with an eager desire to be baptized; but, after going up to the temple for prayer's sake, being intently engaged on the divine Scripture, was thus suitably discovered-to whom God had, unasked, sent an apostle, which one, again, the Spirit bade adjoin himself to the chamberlain's chariot. The Scripture which he was reading186 falls in opportunely with his faith: Philip, being requested, is taken to sit beside him; the Lord is pointed out; faith lingers not; water needs no waiting for; the work is completed, and the apostle snatched away. "But Paul too was, in fact, `speedily' baptized: "for Simon,187 his host, speedily recognized him to be "an appointed vessel of election." God's approbation sends sure premonitory tokens before it; every "petition "188 may both deceive and be deceived. And so, according to the circumstances and disposition, and even age, of each individual, the delay of baptism is preferable; principally, however, in the case of little children. For why is it necessary-if (baptism itself) is not so necessary189 -that the sponsors likewise should be thrust into danger? Who both themselves, by reason of mortality, may fail to fulfil their promises, and may be disappointed by the development of an evil disposition, in those for whom they stood? The Lord does indeed say, "Forbid them not to come unto me."190 Let them "come," then, while they are growing up; let them "come" while they are learning, while they are learning whither to come;191 let them become Christians192 when they have become able to know Christ. Why does the innocent period of life hasten to the "remission of sins? "More caution will be exercised in worldly193 matters: so that one who is not trusted with earthly substance is trusted with divine! Let them know how to "ask" for salvation, that you may seem (at least) to have given "to him that asketh."194 For no less cause must the unwedded also be deferred-in whom the ground of temptation is prepared, alike in such as never were wedded195 by means of their maturity, and in the widowed by means of their freedom-until they either marry, or else be more fully strengthened for continence. If any understand the weighty import of baptism, they will fear its reception more than its delay: sound faith is secure of salvation.
    Tertullian on baptism

    Not all the Church "fathers" thought infant baptism was a good idea.

    (I know, I know, Tertullian wasnt a church father right?)
     
  10. don 3426

    don 3426
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    0
    littledrummerboy
    I wont give up the correct interpretaion of a major practice of chowing ones faith publicly to atempt not to offend a person who is wrong. It would be like if i was against abortion but did nothing about it cause it might affend someone. So you can go ahead and try to tiptoe around oversensitive ppl but I refuse to hide what the truth is. I do have back up for what i say, as i told you the greek meaning of baptism is to imurse (go all the way under).
     
  11. Littledrummerboy

    Littledrummerboy
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Don,

    Then prove to me that you are right, because so far, all you have done is say you are right.

    Psalm

    Right, while Tertullian's teachings were good on some points, he was ultimately excommunicated.

    Gina,

    *snip*
    Take problems with moderators to pm and keep them out of the threads please. If you check them you have one. ....Gina

    Pax Christi,

    Stephen

    [ December 16, 2004, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: Gina L ]
     
  12. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2001
    Messages:
    3,395
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is only one interpretation of Scripture--God's.</font>[/QUOTE]Why would God need to interpret Scripture?
     
  13. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    God doesn't. It his revelation to mankind. He told us exactly what He wanted us to know, and man has no right to distort it.
    For example, when God told us that he created the earth in 6 days, man has no right to question God, and deny that God created the earth in 6 days.
    When Jonah was swallowed by a whale, man has no right to call God a liar, and say no that is impossible, it didn't happen.

    We believe what God said in the Scriptures by faith. We don't interpret it according to our presuppostions. There is only one interpretation, and that is God's. In other word's God meant what he said. If you have trouble with the meaning that God had for us, then we have to look harder to find the correct meaning. It is called "rightly dividing the word of truth." (2Tim.2:15)
    DHK
     
  14. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tertullian was a 2nd century Luther. Had he lived in the 16th century he would no doubt have been a Reformer. The Roman church doesnt like to have its people's eyes opened.

    BTW, when was he excommunicated and why?
     
  15. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0

    It depends on the denomination. Some view baptism as part of the regenerative process, citing 1 Peter 3:21 ("This prefigured Baptism, which saves you now"), Acts 2:38 ("Repent and be Baptized... and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"), and Mark 16:16 ("Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved"). Others, like ourselves, see it as symbolic only, whether it's done as an adult or not.

    As far as the baptising of those not yet saved, there are some scriptural references in the NT that speak of a believer being baptized, who then proceeds to baptize his whole household. Denominations that baptize infants do so under the presumption that an infant is now a part of one's household, hence, the saved parents will have all the members of their household baptized.

    We, of course, point to scriptures that suggest that one should be saved and then be baptized.


    The Greek word can mean "to dip", but als can carry the meaning "to wash", "to pour", and "to cleanse". Given that scripture itself doesn't mandate a specific mode outside of word definition, some denominations leave that to the choice of the baptism candidate.
    Good point. If it's indeed "just a symbol" as we believe, then why the big to-do about having to "go under"? Yes, I agree with you that going under has significant symbolic meaning, but again, if it's a symbol only, perhaps we're making more of a deal about it that we should for other non-baptist Christians.

    In short, we Baptists believe that we adhere to the most scripturally supportable practice of baptism for the most part. But, there is some scripture that, in some manner of interpretation, supports the views of others.

    In the big scheme of things, when we stand before the Lord one day, the last thing he'll care about is how wet we got.

    I thought it was a "big fish" [​IMG] (ducking to avoid the tomatoes)
     
  16. don 3426

    don 3426
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey drummerboy
    have been blind to half the messeges i put up? My proof is the Greek translation of baptism (by the way greek was what the nt orrigoanlly was writen in) means to imurse or go ALL THE WAY UNDER so for the third time i am backing my piont but if u are a baptist you should not be going against what the bible says.
     
  17. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually baptizo does not mean to "to immerse" According to A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature Third Edition or BDAG, Baptizo means
    "1. To wash cermonially for purpose of purification, wash, purify.
    2. To use water in a rite for purpose of renewing or establishing a relationship with God"

    Also Baptism has been improperly labeled an ordinance. To call baptism an ordinance makes it into a law or something that must be done in obedience however, the grammar of the great commision does not support this assertion. According to the Greek the only imperative or command is "make disciples", baptizontes "baptizing" is not an imperative it is a participle, the same applies for didaskontes "teaching". A participle by nature can not be an imperative. Instead what we have is a grammatical pause telling how disciples are to be made. Wallace calls these participles "participles of means" in otherwords they tell how a task will be done. This means the text may be accurately translated as go make disciples by means of baptizing and teaching, unfortunately no English translation reflects their full meaning.

    Now if baptism is as you all claim a work that would mean God is telling us to go make disciples by means of work. Yet this can not be since we know that a work of man cannot bring a person to God. Because of this we must say that baptism is not a work and therefore not an ordinance.

    But if we are to view baptism as a gift of God in which He offers the fullness of His grace, won by Jesus Christ, as a gift to be recieved then we are being consistant with the revelation of God. Because now God is in the rightful place of driving the action for it is only God who can bring us sinful fallen people to Himself.
     
  18. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Which meaning of Baptidzo did you pick? The first one? Or one of the others down on the list somewhere. The primary meaning is: immerse.
    The most respected of all Greek lexicons for the Koine Greek langauge, Thayer's gives immersion for Baptidzo. Just about every other source does as well. If you have a biased source to prove a point that you have already made up your mind about, then what profit is it?
    DHK
     
  19. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2001
    Messages:
    3,395
    Likes Received:
    0
    God doesn't. It his revelation to mankind. He told us exactly what He wanted us to know, and man has no right to distort it.
    For example, when God told us that he created the earth in 6 days, man has no right to question God, and deny that God created the earth in 6 days.
    When Jonah was swallowed by a whale, man has no right to call God a liar, and say no that is impossible, it didn't happen.

    We believe what God said in the Scriptures by faith. We don't interpret it according to our presuppostions. There is only one interpretation, and that is God's. In other word's God meant what he said. If you have trouble with the meaning that God had for us, then we have to look harder to find the correct meaning. It is called "rightly dividing the word of truth." (2Tim.2:15)
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]Who decides if one is "rightly dividing the word of truth?"

    I know, I know, God. But seriously.

    Suppose you and I disagree on the intent and meaning of a given Scripture. Let's say, further, that we both can find supporting Scriptures for our differing interpretations. Which of our interpretations is "God's interpretation?"
     
  20. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    As long as it is not on the fundamentals of the faith: those doctrines directly related to Christ and salvation, then we can ask God when we get to Heaven. [​IMG]
    DHK
     

Share This Page

Loading...