Holy Communion

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Jude, Aug 5, 2004.

  1. Jude

    Jude
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    Is the Bread and the Wine in Holy Communion the Body and Blood of Christ???

    Justin Martyr, 155 A.D.
    "For we do not receive these as common bread and common drink; but just as Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have learned that the food over which thanks has been given by the prayer of the word which comes from him, and by which are blood and flesh are nourished through a change, is the Flesh and Blood of the same incarnate Jesus."
     
  2. John Gilmore

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    Is the Bread and the Wine in Holy Communion the Body and Blood of Christ???

    No, because scripture expressly says the bread remains bread and the wine remains wine. 1 Cor. 11:26-28. We receive the Body and Blood of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine.

    Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation are human inventions contrary to scripture and the teachings of the Church Catholic. As Justin Martyr testifies, just as Jesus Christ, in the hypostatic union, is God and flesh and blood, so, in the sacramental union of Holy Communion, we receive the Body and Blood of Christ and the bread and wine.

    [ August 06, 2004, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
     
  3. John3v36

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    john 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    The things Jesus said are not physical but spiritual.
     
  4. HisMercy

    HisMercy
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    John3v36,

    I agree with your reference of Jn. 6:63. God's language is spiritual. Interpreting the Word of God literally(the letter) leads to death because the letter killeth.
     
  5. Jude

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    Funny how the early Church just didn't understand Scripture! Funny how the Church, for 1500 years, got it all wrong! till John Calvin came along! Jesus said, "This is My Body, this is My blood." Why can't you take Him at His word???
     
  6. StefanM

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    Funny how the early Church just didn't understand Scripture! Funny how the Church, for 1500 years, got it all wrong! till John Calvin came along! Jesus said, "This is My Body, this is My blood." Why can't you take Him at His word??? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't trust the early church fathers for their understanding of Scripture. I've seen what allegorical interpretation can do :mad:
     
  7. Jude

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    I just don't see how this applies to the question...
     
  8. Jude

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    Jesus' promise was,
    "I am with you always, even unto the end of the age." Of course, the Mormons and the JW's don't either. Of course, the early Church fathers also gave us the NT canon and all of our Christian doctrines.

    [ August 06, 2004, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: Gina L ]
     
  9. StefanM

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    I believe that the early church had a lot of things right, but I do not believe they were correct on many issues. I believe the Holy Spirit guided the early church and guides us today, but this doesn't grant either them or us infallibility.
     
  10. Jude

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    Jesus' promise was,
    "I am with you always, even unto the end of the age." Of course, the Mormons and the JW's don't either. Of course, the early Church fathers also gave us the NT canon and all of our Christian doctrines.
    </font>[/QUOTE]:rolleyes:
     
  11. John Gilmore

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    Funny how the early Church just didn't understand Scripture! Funny how the Church, for 1500 years, got it all wrong! till John Calvin came along! Jesus said, "This is My Body, this is My blood." Why can't you take Him at His word??? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, Jesus does not lie but neither does Paul. The early church taught the "Real Presence" not transubstantiation. That was an invention of the papists who like John Calvin have twisted scripture. Please attend to the words of Justin Martyr that you have quoted and scripture. Transubstantiation is accepted only by the papists and was rejected by all the early church fathers.

    [ August 07, 2004, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
     
  12. BobRyan

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    No - it is merely the symbol of it.

    As Paul reminds us 1 Cor 11 - Christ declared this to be a "Memorial service" of the historic fact of Christ's death.

    As we are told in Heb 10 - Christ was only sacrificed "once" and that was "for all time".

    As Christ instructs us in John 6 the symbol of His body and blood as food and drink - is just that symbolic.

    Having laid that foundation - it is clear - the bread and wine are symbols of Christ's body and blood.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    I just don't see how this applies to the question... </font>[/QUOTE]#1. Christ is alive in John 6 not dead or sacrificed.

    #2. Christ does not say "some day soon my flesh WILL be food" he claims it already IS in John 6.

    #3. Christ uses the SAME symbol of bread coming down out of Heaven as Moses in Deut 6 where we are told that the bread represents "The WORD of God".

    #4. John already told us in John 1 "The WORD became flesh" and then in John 6 Christ uses the SAME symbol - FLESH for WORD.

    #5. Christ summarizes HIS OWN John 6 argument stating plainly "literal Flesh is Worthless - it is the WORDS that I speak that have spirit and life". This is said because in his symbolic illustration the point of each illustration was "obtaining life".

    #6. The "faithLESS" disciples in John 6 are the ones that took Him literally.

    #7. In Matt 16 Christ already chastised the disciples for being TOO literal with the symbol of bread - when it stood for "teaching".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Gina B

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    Jude, please unblock your pm's. Moderators need to be able to contact you privately. Thanks.
    Gina
     
  15. John3v36

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    I just don't see how this applies to the question... </font>[/QUOTE]#1. Christ is alive in John 6 not dead or sacrificed.

    #2. Christ does not say "some day soon my flesh WILL be food" he claims it already IS in John 6.

    #3. Christ uses the SAME symbol of bread coming down out of Heaven as Moses in Deut 6 where we are told that the bread represents "The WORD of God".

    #4. John already told us in John 1 "The WORD became flesh" and then in John 6 Christ uses the SAME symbol - FLESH for WORD.

    #5. Christ summarizes HIS OWN John 6 argument stating plainly "literal Flesh is Worthless - it is the WORDS that I speak that have spirit and life". This is said because in his symbolic illustration the point of each illustration was "obtaining life".

    #6. The "faithLESS" disciples in John 6 are the ones that took Him literally.

    #7. In Matt 16 Christ already chastised the disciples for being TOO literal with the symbol of bread - when it stood for "teaching".

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you and Amen
     
  16. Australian Baptist Student

    Australian Baptist Student
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    Hi there,
    John 6:51-59 needs to be read in context. In John 4:34, Jesus says that his food is to do God's will, just as he has offered living water to the woman at the well. Clearly here, he is not speaking about real food and water, but about the sustainer and motivator of our life. In John 6, Jesus says to work for food which endures to eternal lfe, which the Son of Man will give you. They then ask, what good works does God require?, and Jesus answers, "the work (singular) of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent." After then saying we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, he continues in verse 63, "The Spirit gives life, the flesh is nothing, the words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life."
    That is, in the one passage, Jesus says the one thing you must do is to believe in him, and then says to consume him, and then explains to the disciples that the flesh is nothing, the spirit is life. Either eating Jesus is a powerful way of saying to believe on him, or we need to do more than believe to please God. Importantly, in John 7:37, jesus again uses the "drink" idea, and it is here explained. Jesus says they should come to him and drink, and that water would then flow out of them. Verse 39 explains the metaphore, ""by this (the living water) he meant the Spirit, whom those WHO BELIEVED IN HIM were later to recieve." That is, the "drinking" is here again equated with believing, and the water is the Holy Spirit, just as in 6:63. The one act (Jn 6:29) is to believe, eating and drinking Jesus are powerful and helpful metaphores of this, as 7:37-39 restates.
    Hope this helps, Colin
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Good points all.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. HisMercy

    HisMercy
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    Jude,

    Jesus keeps his promise of being with us always, til the end of the age by the Spirit. He doesn't do this by something made with the human hands.
     
  19. Kamoroso

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    CHAP. 2 THE FLESH AND BLOOD


    John 6:53-58 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
    54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
    56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
    57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
    58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    The next spiritual truth that we will examine, which has been literalzed by the church of Rome, is the Eucharist. The church of Rome contends that Christ was speaking of changing the bread and wine of the above verses, into the literal body, and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. She also contends that true believers must partake of this literal body and blood. Of course, the only ones that can perform this transubstantiation, or changing of bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ, are the priests of the church of Rome. In this way again, the church of Rome has sought to set herself up in a position of power and authority over all those who would be true believers. Indeed, over all the world, if they wish to be saved.

    If indeed, bread and wine must be transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ, and only the priest's of Rome can perform this miracle, then all are dependent upon Rome for salvation. So now, Peter was handed special authority over the church of Christ, whom the Popes now represent. In this manner, a mere man has been put in between humanity and God. Now also, the priests in subjection to this man, have been given by him, the power to perform this miracle by which the true believer may partake of Christ unto salvation. Both of these claims to authority come to the church of Rome by the literalization of spiritual truths in the holy scriptures. They also both put mere men between humanity and God, a thing which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ came specifically to abolish. We will discuss this issue in more depth in following chapters.

    Let us examine the spiritual truth of the above verses which is ignored by the church of Rome so as to establish herself in authority. After saying in verse fifty six, "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him", Christ goes on in the very next verse to explain what he had just said. " 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me " Are we to suppose from the above verses, that Christ was continually changing bread and wine into the literal body and blood of his Father while here on earth, and eating him, so as to live by his Father? Of course not. We know that the Father lived within the Son through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which he gave to his son ( Jn. 1:32 ). This is why Christ came to earth, and became one of us. So that He could dwell within the believer through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God. This does not happen by ingesting the literal body and blood of Christ, but by faith in the son of God, and submission to his will. Observe the following scriptures.

    John 17:17-23 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
    19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    The Father was in Christ, and Christ was in him. This was not accomplished by Christ eating the literal flesh and blood of the Father. Likewise, Christ does not live in the believer by the ingestion of his literal flesh and blood. Christ was our example in all things, as the Father was in Christ, and Christ in Him, so are we to be in Christ, that the Father and Son might be in us. Verse seventeen points out how this takes place. True believers are sanctified through God's truth, His word is truth. It is by the ingestion, or taking in of God's word, that believers recieve the Holy Spirit of God. This is a spiritual experience, not a literal one. However, it will have literal effects in your life, by conforming the believer into the likeness of the Father and Son, which is salvation.

    Matt 4:4 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    Those who recieve the word of God, and take it in, intending to make it the rule of their lives, are those whom the Holy Spirit of God will come into and use for God's glory. This is how God dwells within the believer, not by eating and drinking some wine and bread that some claim to have changed into the body and blood of Christ. It requires no change of heart, or mind, to eat some bread, and drink some wine. On the other hand, it requires submission to God, to believe, and act upon his word. This can be accomplished only by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God, and it unquestioinably changes the heart, and actions of the believer into the likeness of their Lord's. This spiritual truth is lost sight of, in the literal interpretation of Christ's words regarding the subject at hand.

    John 14:15-21 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    Those who love God will endeavor to keep his commandments. Only those who have made this choice, that is to allow Christ to rule in their lives, will receive the Spirit of truth. Without this Holy Spirit, it is impossible to serve God, or keep his commandments. The world cannot recieve the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit comes by way of acceptance of, and submission to the word of God. This is why only true believers can enter into the experience that Christ is referring to when he speaks of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. By literalizing this truth, and making the act the mere ingestion of bread and wine, the church of Rome has set up a system, and a people who have only a form of godliness, denying the power thereof.

    1 Cor 11:24-27 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
    25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
    26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
    27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

    As Paul points out in the above verses, partaking of the bread and wine, is a reminder of the Lord's death on our behalf, till he comes again. This is exactly where all true believers begin, and maintain their walk with God, at the foot of the cross. It is by entering into Christ's death, the full submission and surrender of self, that Christ is enabled to live within us. Accepting Christ's death for us, not only in our place, but as our own death, that we make walk in newness of life, by the power of the Holy Spirit of God. This is what it means to eat the flesh, and drink the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To be in him at his death, that he might be in us in newness of life, his life, not our own. For Christ was obedient to the Father, even to the point of death, that we might die with him, in order to recieve power to be obedient to the Father also. You in Christ, and Christ in you, the hope of glory. We will end this chapter with the following verses.

    Rom 6:3-7 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
    6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    Gal 3:27 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    Col 1:26-27 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    BYe for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     

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