homosexuality and forgiveness

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Pete Richert, May 16, 2003.

  1. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert
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    Okay, homosexuality is wrong and that is not to be argued on this thread.

    It seems to me that many who label themselves "fundlementalists" tend to lean away from the Lordship salvation idea and more to the alter call, sinners prayer, make a decision for Christ type salvation. Santification is then seen as a seperate process and we all continue to sin so that this process is not perfected in this life. But it always seems to me that homosexuals don't get this same bargin. When a homosexual continues to practice homosexuality we condemn him to hell, for indeed, "those who are sexually immorral will not inherit the kindgom of heaven". I will then here things like "those who have the Holy Spirit would not continue to do such" and likewise. But is this true? Why is the sin of homosexuality one that we should assume is immedietly (or very soon perfected) and not our own sin. There are other sins in which God declares that will not enter the kindgom of heaven, including covetous, and surely no one will claim perfection from that. But even so, doesn't this then fly back in the face of the non-lordship idea. It shouldn't matter whether they build self-control agaist their sin, they asked for forgiveness and it was given to them. They have no more need to practice good works (of not practicing homosexuality) then somone needs to stop lying to be saved. Anyway, just some thoughts.
     
  2. Charlesga

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    Very well said. Homosexuality is wrong, as is all sin, and I have not yet met the perfect person that has no sin. I would go a step further and say that all sexual sins are seen by us as a greater sin than any other. The process of santification is just that...a process that is completed at the earthly death of a Christian, when we are made perfect.
     
  3. C.S. Murphy

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    ***Murph*** What exactly do you mean by "lying to be saved" Are you saying that a christian who is a homo has been forgiven and can continue in his homosexuality?
     
  4. Charlesga

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    Are you trying to say that a person must clean up their act before they can be saved? How ungraceful it would be if that were true!

    I think the point is well taken. There are many that continue to lie, cheat, use unethical means in the business world etc. etc. etc., but their savlation is never questioned.
     
  5. C.S. Murphy

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    Are you trying to say that a person must clean up their act before they can be saved? How ungraceful it would be if that were true!

    I think the point is well taken. There are many that continue to lie, cheat, use unethical means in the business world etc. etc. etc., but their savlation is never questioned.
    </font>[/QUOTE]No offese Charles but since you didn't write the post I questioned I doubt that you can tell me what he meant. Secondly I agree that christians still sin but what are you saying by your post that we should say that lying and cheating is o.k or what. Call a spade a spade that is fine and biblical I believe, the problem is that while many claim that homos can be a viable lifestyle you never hear anyone saying that lying is. I am not saying that this is your view only that it is taken to this extreme by some.
    Murph
     
  6. Johnv

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    Are you trying to say that a person must clean up their act before they can be saved?

    I think you hit the nail on the head. Nearly all of us will spend our lives, and often failing, to "clean up our acts". Be it homosexuality, alcoholism, caffiene addiction, drug addiction, sloth, a propensity fo speed, procrastination, gluttony, etc etc. If we weren't saved until we completed the repenting process, none of us would ever get saved.
     
  7. I Am Blessed 24

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    This statement is correct John. We come to God, 'just as we are'. God will complete the repenting process IF WE WILL LET HIM.

    I believe once a person is saved, he will thirst for the Word and the Word will convict him and as he grows spiritually and matures he will 'put away childish things', regardless of what they are.

    If this doesn't happen then he will stay a babe in Christ. Salvation is not a license to continue in sin but an opportunity to grow in grace.

    Isn't there something terribly wrong with a child who does not grow mentally? The same is true of a child of God who does not grow spiritually. There is something terribly wrong.

    Blessings,
    Sue
     
  8. dianetavegia

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    Excellent reply, Sue. Our pastor says, We Catch 'em... HE'LL Clean 'em!

    Diane
     
  9. LadyEagle

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    Amen, Sue! [​IMG]

    http://www.matthewcmanning.com/
     
  10. ruthigirl

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    Can you point me to a passage that indicates this?

    Actually, those who are truly saved, will produce good fruit.

    A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. The reverse is also true. The Lord said that.

    This is just one example of the easy believism problem that has plagued so many churches.
     
  11. I Am Blessed 24

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    (We are not all cleaned up when we get saved, that is what God does for us as we follow Him.)

    "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanseth us from all sin." I John 1:9

    (Actually, we will not if we refuse to turn from sin.)

    "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." I John 1:6

    How is this 'easy believism'? I stated in my earlier post that salvation is NOT a license to sin, but an opportunity to grow in grace.

    Blessings,
    Sue
     
  12. C.S. Murphy

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    Can you point me to a passage that indicates this?

    Actually, those who are truly saved, will produce good fruit.

    A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. The reverse is also true. The Lord said that.

    This is just one example of the easy believism problem that has plagued so many churches.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Khasid, first of all I must ask for clarification if you are truly saved? I trust that you are so i am not questioning this but simply to prove a point.
    If you are truly saved, since that time have you committed a sin? If you have committed a sin then you have disproven your point.
    If you tell me that you have not sinned since you came to know Christ then that is another kettle of fish.
    Murph
     
  13. ruthigirl

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    C.S. Murphy, rest assured, I am saved. What I said has nothing to do with whether a person can or does sin after salvation. Obviously all saved people do, including myself. Also, my point was about what Sue said about "if we will let him".

    Sue, I noticed you used 1 John 1:6. If a person does not have the truth, he is not saved. What do you think John was saying?

    Also, easy believism is a position that includes the idea that a person can be saved and not demonstrate fruit. I think my assessment of what you said is correct. Feel free to clarify if I was wrong.
     
  14. Pete

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  15. Pastor_Bob

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    Although I understand what you both mean here, I think you are using the wrong word when you use the word “repentance.” I think the word you need is the word “sanctification.”

    In all of God’s dealing with mankind, there is a divine side and a human side. There was a divine element and a human element in giving us the Scriptures. The Bible was inspired by God yet written by men.

    2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

    “Holy men of God spake…” that was the human side; “As they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” That’s the divine side.

    There is also a human side and a divine side to the experience of salvation. The human side we call “repentance;” the divine side we call, “regeneration.”

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (KJV)

    Repentance is not a process. Repentance simply means to turn or reverse. A repentant person is one who has turned about and started in a different direction. When a person repents, he turns from something, to something. He turns from sin, and he turns to Christ. The turning from sin is called repentance, and the turning to Christ is called faith.
    Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (KJV)

    Repentance is an act not a process. It is an act of the will whereby one resolves, by the help of God to forsake his sins. Repentance is a change of mind with respect to sin that leads to a change of conduct. The repentance is immediate. When we repent, God can regenerate. The inside is cleansed at once; the outside then begins to conform to the image of God's Son. Romans 8:29

    Regeneration is a spiritual experience. It is wrought out in a person’s spirit. It is inward and not outward. In regeneration, you are given a new nature; you become a new creature. Your heart is changed and your inner life is transformed. Ephesians 4:24

    Changing the outside without changing the inside does no good at all. The outward life of a man can be changed without any change in his heart. He may be a reformed man without being a regenerated man. There must be a change in his inner nature.

    The experience of regeneration is sometimes illustrated in Sunday school and Children’s Church by the process in which a caterpillar becomes a butterfly. First, there is the worm: hairy and ugly, crawling in the dirt. Then one day that worm wraps itself in a cocoon. It stays there for a time and then one day the cocoon is torn open and a beautiful butterfly comes out, no more to crawl around in the dirt, but to soar in heavenly places. That butterfly may be wounded so that it falls to the ground once again and crawls in the dirt, but all of the powers of the earth can never make a worm out of it again.

    That is the way it is with regeneration. Man, in his unregenerate state, is nothing but a worm crawling around in the filth of this world. But, when the Spirit of God lays hold of him, and works that wondrous change in his soul, he becomes a child of God, to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. He may slip and fall, and lie again in the dirt for a while, but all the powers on earth or in hell can never change him back into what he once was. II Corinthians 5:17

    So, does a person have to get cleaned up to get saved? No, but he has to repent of his sins completely in order to be saved. He has to turn from those sins and turn to Christ. When he does, God does the work of regeneration in his heart and begins the work of sanctification in his life.

    Sanctification is a work of God accomplished in His children by the power of the Holy Spirit. The rate of growth for each individual in this process of sanctification is in direct proportion to the individual’s yielding to the Holy Spirit. As we yield to God, He uses the mirror of His Word to show us the areas of our life that need some work.

    Will a homosexual remain a homosexual after he’s saved? No. He will fight the flesh until the day he dies but he will have had forsaken that sinful lifestyle if he truly repented.

    Will a liar remain a liar after he’s saved? No. He will fight the flesh until the day he dies but he will have had forsaken that sin if he truly repented.

    Will a thief remain a thief after he’s saved? No. He will fight the flesh until the day he dies but he will have had forsaken that lifestyle if he truly repented.

    Of course the list goes on and on naming each and every sin that you can think of.
     
  16. massdak

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    please dont get me to side with the liberals on this issue, but if a person is a lost sinner and knows he is a lost sinner without Christ and he has believed in Christ, being obedient to the gospel, then he is saved. it would probably be likely that if a person is a homosexual and doesn't see himself as being in sin in that type of horrible horrendous filthy lifestyle then i would believe he didn't make a good profession in believing the Christ of the bible. i also think it is possible that a homosexual (now he shouldnt be considered a homosexual) that is saved can still be living in this horrible sin, but i am sure he would know that he is sinning and would be in conscious conviction of his sin. also what do you mean by easy believism? that is salvation if one is placing their trust in Christ that is it His word is good and He will save those who trust in Him
     
  17. I Am Blessed 24

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    Good post Pastor/Bob! [​IMG]
    That is exactly what I meant to say. :D
    CONGRATULATIONS on your 1000 posts! [​IMG]
     
  18. Charlesga

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    Originally quoted by C.S. Murphy:

    To clarify, we often ignore or are much quicker to forgive someone who lies or commits what we consider to be lesser sins.
     
  19. Don

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    Unfortunately, it could be likely that he/she hasn't been taught that homosexuality is abomination in the Lord's eyes.

    In our day and age of "toleration and acceptance," there's less and less preaching on what's wrong, and more and more on "God loves you no matter what."

    If they're saved, and they clearly hear it preached that it's wrong, and they're given scripturally (and I must add, contextually correct scripture) as to why it's wrong, then I'm sure the first reaction is, "I never knew that!"

    I also know many people who are doing what you and I might consider to be wrong, but they haven't been presented contextually correct and clear scripture as to why it's wrong. They've just been told it's wrong, and as far as they know, it's only the preacher's opinion.

    As Paul says in Romans 14, let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
     
  20. dianetavegia

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    I've had this discussion with two young homosexual men in the past. One was my hairdresser. He was a Sunday School teacher in an Episcopalian church. Gary talked of the Lord, shared Jesus with clients and with his daughter by a high school marriage.

    The second man was a little older but much younger than me. He had been in a 'gay marriage' for 20 years. He and his partner had gone to Vermont to have a marriage ceremony. He was Catholic and very involved in his parrish.

    Both of these men told me that they felt their lifestyle was not sinful because 'God has never convicted me of this as sin'. I was stumped.

    I could show them in the Bible where their choice was a sin but their eyes and hearts were blinded and they had 'explanations' for those verses.

    I really felt they both had a personal relationship with Christ but I also got the feeling that they were not surrendering fully and that's why they couldn't hear God on their sinful life style.

    Anyone have comments or thoughts about this? I always spoke with them in love and never condemned them or questioned their salvation. I don't know if there was something else I could do. I really felt they had chosen to NOT hear God on this sin.

    Diane
     

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