honest question to PB's and Reformed's II

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by pinoybaptist, Feb 4, 2014.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    okay, the other thread with the same title minus the "!!" is on its 5th or 6th page and I think is about to be closed, besides which it has veered off topic already so I'm starting this one. apologies.

    I just found the publication where I read the article which spurred the question but let me give some backgrounders or groundwork or whatever y'all want to call it.

    I believe in LIMITED ATONEMENT.
    But what I understand is that Limited Atonement is all part and parcel of the Election package.
    That is, like Redemption, Salvation, Adoption, etc., the whole shebang applied to ALL THE ELECT, whether they are gospelly saved, or not.

    However, this article seems to be saying that Limited Atonement is for the gospelly saved.
    Now, maybe I am misunderstanding what the author (who will remain unnamed, but IS Primitive Baptist) is simply saying that Limited Atonement is proved to be FOR the elect (all of them) only by the fact that out of a fallen humanity, not all will respond to the gospel message and call for obedience.

    So, here is what the author stated, or wrote:


    Who is He ?
    Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bear a son, and they shall call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins. (So, Jesus is the one that shall save his people.

    Who are His people ? Are they all of Adam's race ?
    Psalm 100:3 : Know ye that the Lord, he is God. It is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

    Then his people are sheep. Who are the sheep ? John 10:29 "My father which gave them me...."

    So the sheep are the ones the Father gave his son.
    John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me.

    Who is it that comes to him ? The ones the Father gave him.
    Do all come to Jesus ? No.
    Then if all do not come, then all were not given, then we have a limited atonement proven.

    Will my fellow PB's comment on this, please ?
    Is limited atonement applied only to those AMONG THE ELECT who come to Jesus ?
    Or does he mean, they who come to Jesus, FROM the elect, prove that atonment is limited to the elect only, since not all of Adam's race are his people.
    I lean towards the last one, but I need some comments.
    thank you.
     
  2. kyredneck

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    This didn't suffice?:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2081703#post2081703
     
  3. pinoybaptist

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    Brother, please do not find offense at my thick-headedness.
    But while your answer shows that not all the redeemed (house of Israel) will be obedient and therefore experience gospel blessings and timely salvation the question was not about timely blessings and timely salvation.
    The gist of the question was does limited atonement (of the blood of Christ) therefore cover NOT ALL OF THE HOUSE of Israel, but only those WITHIN the house of Israel who were obedient ?
    IOW, is limited atonement (not timely blessings or timely salvation) only for those who are obedient. while those who do hear the gospel and not obey do not benefit from it ?
    If this is so, then is the whole package of election minus one (limited atonement) for those who will never have the opportunity to come into gospel instruction in this lifetime for various reasons ?
    please take a second look at the article and the bolded and colored section.
    to put it more clearly: is limited atonement the same as gospel salvation ?
    this is what I am understanding from your reply.
    thank you, and God bless.
     
    #3 pinoybaptist, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2014
  4. kyredneck

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    I'm not at all offended brother. You're confusing me with your persistent use of the term 'limited atonement' when I believe you should just use 'atonement'.
     
  5. kyredneck

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    It'd help immensely if I could read the article you're referring to.
     
  6. pinoybaptist

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    I posted part of it above in the first post.
    but on the other hand, I think I will simply write the elder and ask him what he means.
    thanks for your patience with me.
     
  7. Jacob_Elliott

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    Again,, I believe God will make a way for the elect to hear trust and obey, why do you believe there are elect who have never heard?
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    because clearly the Bible says the Book of Life, in which all the names of God's people are, was written from the foundation of the world.

    because eternal salvation is absolutely passive to the elect. they have no participation in it, not even hearing the gospel.

    because if hearing, trusting and obeying were prerequisites to eternal salvation, then no one began to be saved until the gospel began to be preached, people began to hear, and disciples (students) began to obey.

    because along with the faculty of hearing comes the ability to understand and grasp, which babies, infants, and those in the womb do not have, neither do those who have been born with mental challenges, and to insist that the elect must hear in order to be saved is to damn these to eternal perdition based on their age and/or deformities.

    because God is altogether merciful and gracious.

    finally, the question is not concerning salvation, whether eternal or timely.
    the question is about the atonement.
    is the atonement applied only to those among the elect who obey ?
    that question came about since the author took his example from national Israel, which is representative of spiritual Israel, and not of all mankind.
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    A thread that starts out trying to define "limited atonement" deserves to move to the Calvinism forum.
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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  11. Yeshua1

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    Limited atonement is such that those whom God intended the death of jesus to pay for/atonedfor their sins was accomplished upon the Cross, and yet there is still a time aspect, as those saved by the Cross will still experience salvation is this life, saved by grace thru faith alone!

    You as a PB hold to God salavtion being eternally based, so why cannot the Lord chose to elect thsoelike infants/babies/menatlly challeneged by just that, and rserve those able to have faith and understand, get from him that required to get saved while yet living?

    Why not a special and general election from God, based their meansto accept jesus or not?
     
  12. Jacob_Elliott

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    Yes! Thank you!:thumbsup:
     
  13. kyredneck

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    What do you believe happened to the Gentiles outside the Mosaic covenant during OT times? Did they all go to hell because they weren't included? If yes, explain the meaning of Isa 54:1 & Gal 4:27; give 'your take' on it. Include Jn 10:16, Ro 2:13-15 and Col 1:26, 27 while you're at it.
     
    #13 kyredneck, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2014
  14. Jacob_Elliott

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    I'll take a look
     
  15. Jacob_Elliott

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    John 10:16 There are elect that are Gentiles all over the world
    Rom 2:12-16 basically the same concept not only Israelites will be saved
    Colossians same thing brother
    Non of these verses say that you can be saved without hearing the gospel.??
    On a side note I do believe there is an exception for babies and infants, King David.
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    God ALWAY has saved same way, By Grace alone thru faith alone, based upon death of Jesus, OT saved by looking forward, NT looking back, so god's election and choosing would save gentiles and pagans in OT times also!

    Pnce saved He wanted them to become part of the Covenant nation Isreal...
     
  17. Jacob_Elliott

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    Hmm you make a good point and I can see where you are coming from. I agree on how we are saved, my only objection is that the NT seems to emphasize hearing? Rom 10:17, Eph 1:13
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Romans 4:8

    King James Version (KJV)


    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
     

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