Honest, Studied and Converted free willers?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Dale-c, Jun 10, 2007.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
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    Are there any people who believe in free will and non predestination etc who are honest in what they believe?
    I think so. I used to be like that myself. I Honestly believed I was right.

    How about studied? This is where I am baffled.
    The Bible so clearly teaches the doctrines an Grace and predestination that I don't see how anyone who has Studied can believe otherwise.

    Are they truly converted?

    Baby christians who are ignorant, as I was are one thing.
    BUt what other explanation fits for those who have been in the ministry for 30 years and still deny God's sovereign grace other than the fact that the natural man cannot know these things?
     
  2. Scarlett O.

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    Yes, I am truly converted and no, I am not a baby Christian.

    I'm not going to take the bait here, but I do want to share one thing with you.

    As a free-willer, I most definitely believe in the Sovereignty of Almighty God. I have always believed in Sovereignty and always will.

    God's Sovereignty and God's gift of grace do not cancel out the free will that He gives us.

    Almighty God, in His Sovereign Nature holds everything in His hands. The physical universe, His gift of grace, and my free will.

    I'm not going to come back and debate this with you. I just wanted you and others to understand that about those of us who call ourselves free-willers.

    We do not deny the Sovereignty of God. We believe that our free will is a creation of God and that our free will is buried deep inside His Sovereignty.
     
  3. Jim1999

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    Man's so-called free will is as free as God's sovereign grace will permit. It is called God's permissive will.

    So, one may truly believe that he has free will and be true to his convictions and his studies of God's word. My dog has free will. It ends at the end of his leash.

    Jonah had free will to disobey the commands of God, until God said, "Thus far and no further.." God had him thrown overboard to learn what God's determinative will was for him.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  4. skypair

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    And NO free will believer denies that -- they just deny your version of them.

    Conclusion: Perhaps YOU, having believed free will first, have apostacized, no? Been led away to worship another God per 2Tim 2:18-19.

    Think about it -- God chooses you according to your free will decision to believe Him and then predestines you to be like Christ. He doesn't chooses those who freely don't believe. He doesn't predestine THEM to be like Christ.

    He doesn't predestine you to believe --- He'd have to rescramble your brain (mind, emotions, and will) to make you believe. Or perhaps you can explain how this happens?


    Like you said, you used to believe it. 2Cor 11:3 -- "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." It is YOU that is backslidden, no?

    Very disingenuous of you. God gives sovereign grace to believers, dale.

    And perhaps it is you that "can't know these things," eh? "Knowing these things" requires that you be "perfect," 1Cor 2:6, saved. If you left your previous post-conversion wisdom, it is you that is led away.

    skypair
     
  5. skypair

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    That's a fair description of limited "human sovereignty." It is by the permission of God that we may choose or reject Him.

    And truly man is limited --- but not from choosing whether to believe unto salvation or not.

    Do you really not see that scripture speaks of both free will and predestination?

    skypair
     
  6. Nate7

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    Free Will

    We have free will to sin that is about it. Salvation comes WHOLLY from God!
     
  7. AresMan

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    Adam and Eve were the only people who had true "free will" at one time.
     
  8. Scarlett O.

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    Free-willers also believe this. Where else could salvation come from?
     
  9. Jarthur001

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    Think about it...this does not make a bit of sense. God choose you, because you choose Him?

    What I like to do when people say stuff like this, is to ask them to put events in order.

    Going by your man made logic we have..

    1) man is a non-believer.
    2) Man choose God and believes.
    3) Then going with your order above...God then choose man to believe.

    Why is the 2nd choice needed????

    This idea is not found anywhere in the Bible. But what it does say, is that Christ choose us, before we choose Him. And...the chooseing by God is for us to believe.

    Are you talking to us or God?? The reason I ask....Gods Word says you are wrong on this idea you have. Maybe we should stick to the Bible and not your logic

    Remember the passage that all freewillers hate. :)

    what did that say?
    "I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me????"

    yes it does say...I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me


    Now that you are faced with the facts of Gods word, will you stop the twisting and "fixing" and the repainting of God, into something you wish to make Him? Would it not be better to believe His word?

    One need only believe Gods Word. The verses are there, if you do not change them.

    David was picked over his older brothers. This was election....Gods choice..and David had nothing to do with it.
    Abram was picked over all men. This was election...and Abram had nothing to do with it.
    Paul was picked over the rich young ruler. The rich young ruler...was a good person. Paul was killing believers. Yet Paul was choosen...not because Paul was a good person...but because God wanted Paul. This is election...and Paul had nothing to do with it.

    Remember Cain? He was sent from the face of God...never to return.

    Have you ever read romans chapter 9?

    How about Eph 1?

    God places all Kings over their dominion. Neb found this out the hard way......the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
    the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will....do you believe this? Are you going to tell God He can no longer do this? Are you saying God has no right to do as He pleases? I say God has the right to elect.

    Tell me this...at the birth of Christ, why did God send a angel to men keeping sheep in a field, and not to a large group in Rome where many more people would believe? Did not God have that right, to do as He pleases? Could not God choose a small group of men, rather then a large city?


    Good Bible study leads to Calvinism, unless you put your will in the way. So it is clear why when you study Gods Word, you can be enlighted beyond what you onced believed as a new born believe.


    NO..it is not him. Read your Bible and stop following your logic. This would help greatly in your understanding of the truth.

    You mean election? :)

    This line is maybe the best line of the month by a free-willer...high lighted not in praise, but rather in full shame. You may notice how free-willers use logic in their and truth, only when it fits their doctrine.

    This is why I say this. The freewiller says all men have the power in them to come to God. This is why men...as the freewiller would see it....are not DEAD...as in not able to respond. Yet we see here trying to use the doctrine of Total Depravity and the verses used to support it, saying the use of such ideas, is toward a Calvinist.

    If this were not sad, it would be funny. Do you believe in Total Depravity or not? If so...then election must happen. If not..you are just full of hot air in your use of it toward a Calvinist.

    Sad..Indeed.
     
    #9 Jarthur001, Jun 10, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2007
  10. Amy.G

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    Dale-C:
    I thought questioning someone's salvation was against BB rules. This post obviously calls into question a person's salvation who believes in free will.
     
  11. npetreley

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    Free-willism is synergy. God provides everything but the decision, which is up to you. If your decision is the hinge and turning point of your own salvation, then your salvation is not wholly from God. You had to add your "right" decision to it in order to be saved.

    This is a very simple concept and I don't really understand why people find it so difficult to grasp. If the difference between you and an unsaved person boils down to the difference in your decisions, then the man who makes the "right"decision has reason to boast. But the Bible says boasting is excluded, so that should be a dead giveaway that free-willism is wrong.
     
  12. Charles Meadows

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    Scripture has tension - like it or not.

    The problem is that many believers insist on having a 100% explanation for everything in the Bible.

    The calvinists interpret everything else in light of predestination passages and the "free-willers" interpret everything in light of free will passages.

    There have been books and books written on this - some very good and others pretty crummy.

    All of the Bible is true - to be sure.

    But there is tension in terms of perspective in the different books in the Bible. James and Paul are not disagreeing but rather approaching different situations and addressing different questions. If we reject this observation in the name of seeking an all-encompassing systematic theology we WILL fail to understand.
     
    #12 Charles Meadows, Jun 10, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2007
  13. Scarlett O.

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    You are exactly right, Jarthur. That makes no sense. It is not biblical, in fact, it is anti-biblical. As a free-willer, I reject that and no free-willer that I know believes that. Your statement is correct.

    This is not what free-willers believe.


    There is not a passage in the bible that any free-willer hates. We may interpret it differently than you do, but that is not hatred.

    Nope.....we don't say that at all.
     
  14. Baptist Believer

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    On what basis do you believe that entering into the life of Christ requires absolutely no action by those who are called? Didn't Jesus call people to follow Him? Was Jesus somehow uninformed about "salvation?"
     
  15. Jim1999

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    We can only understand man from a human perspective. We can only understand the Divine nature from scripture. God is absolutely sovereign and called everything into being. Man was given responsibility, sometimes called "dominion", but that essentially means "responsibility". All these concepts come under separated heading; divine order, and human responsibility. We are free, in the sense that we only understand the human perspective of free will. It is when we reach into the divine prerogative in soteriology we have difficulty, because it is clear that God steps over the line of man's comprehension and says, he loved us before we loved Him, and He called us unto eternal life. You must draw two columns; the first divine prerogative, and the second, man's freedom of choice. The first comes under God's absolute sovereignty, and the second under God's permissive will.

    When you step out of these two distinctives, one's theology falls short, and we end up with controversy which is unending.

    Wasn't it Socrates that did this by the way he posed questions to the pupil until the pupil finally agreed with the professor? The pupil seemed to make the decision, at least in his own mind.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  16. AresMan

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    No one is saying this. He is saying that saving faith--a necessary part of salvation--is part of the salvation that is wholely of God and that God is the cause of saving faith, not man. He is not denying that man must believe to be saved, but rather that this faith is the work of God and not of man. Salvation is wholely of God, and this includes absolutely everything and anything that has anything to do with salvation in any shape and form.

    Religion is man trying to reach out to God.
    Christianity is God reaching down to man. And don't "agree" by mere eulogy; Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Salvation is of God--this means every part. :)
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    All I can say after the many debates we have had on the scriptures is; Hogwash!

    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    Read them and weep.
     
    #17 Brother Bob, Jun 10, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2007
  18. Dale-c

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    Scarlet, you may not say those things but everyone of those things were said by Skypair.
     
  19. Dale-c

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    I suppose that is a decent term for man own righteousness.
    The Bible in the KJ translation uses the term filthy rags in one place.
    Paul uses the term "dung" in another.
    These doctrines are so clear in the Bible that I just don't see anyway people can miss them for any other reason that those I have stated.
     
  20. Dale-c

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    God knows that I have many shortcomings and that I, in my flesh have no good within me.
    However, when it comes to your allegation here, I don't see how you apostacize from reading and growing from the scripture.
    If I am an apostate, please put me on the list with other so called apostates as the Apostle Paul, Spurgeon and Many others who started life with a free will point of view who were enlightened to the truth by God.
     

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