How about a Bible study on Matthew 24/

Love to, jil. And Welcome! Haven't "met" you, have I?

Seems like it was written by Matthew after seeing Mark's gospel. Is it strictly to the Jews? I say no. As we get into it, it seems obvious that there are references to the church (the "householder," the "days of [Gentile] Noah," the disappearances). Then continuing into Mt 25, the "10 virgins" and the "sheep and goats." Matthew was wrotten from the Jewish PERSPECTIVE, for sure, but having written after Mark, I'm sure he was aware of the Gentile audience, too.

My Ryrie Bible says it was written in the 60's (NOT those 60's flower child!) by a Jewish taxcollector.

Anyway, let's get goin'!

skypair

 

I agree -- "written by Matthew" after the book of Mark. Written about 30-60 years after the cross

As for the outline for Matt 24


The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

[/quote]

Matt 24
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

These events could easily apply to the early church, persecution by the Jews, Persecution by pagan Rome, persecution by Papal Rome and to the final persecution of the last days. All would see these same events.


Then Christ points to the fact that all of this continues until the Gospel is preached to all the world AND then the end comes

 

Matt 24
15 ""Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains;
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 ""But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 ""But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.


Where was “the holy ground” in Matt 24:15 in the days of Christ – was it outside of the city in the burial grounds?

Jer 31
38 ""Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 ""The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40 ""And [b]the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD;[/b] it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.''



Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.


The persecution of Christians by the Pagan Roman empire - and then persecution of Christians by the Holy Roman Empire - "The Dark Ages" - represents centuries of killing Christians - unprecedented in extent and length of time - in all of history.

 

Matt 24


21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 ""So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "" For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


The visibility of cloud-to-could lightning - from one end of heaven to the other - is the "comparison" made with the 2nd coming.

The coming is in the clouds - just as the lightning and just as the "signs".



Matt 24:
29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.






These Matt 24 events are recorded in the encyclopedia. First we note that the 1260 years of the dark ages ends in the 1700's. Then we notice the Lisbon earthquake, 1755, the dark day in the Northwestern US, 1780, and the "falling" of the stars, 1833 – all follow the end of that tribulation period.

Historically this is known as “the Dark Day”. It was not world wide but it was recorded here.

- Stars of heaven shall fall No shower from the meteor belt activated in 1833 has been as great as as that one. This observation was noted in the magazine, Sky and Telescope around 1997. (still true as of 2003).

 

For a summary of signs of the end -- see
http://www.present-truth.org/signs-heavens.htm

For a list of historic quotes about the Dark Day and falling stars –
http://www.temcat.com/Temcats-studies/exceptwe.htm

Although Matt 24 and these notes above point out that the major centuries long tribulation ended with the events described above in history – still there is another tribulation period beyond this 1260 year great historic time of persecution. This shorter tribulation is also included in the Matt 24 concept of “tribulation preceding the 2nd coming”. It is seen in Rev 16 as the time of the 7 last plagues and in Rev 12-14 as the time of the Mark of the Beast.


Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.


23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 ""So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "" For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


The visibility of cloud-to-could lightning - from one end of heaven to the other - is the "comparison" made with the 2nd coming.
The coming is in the clouds - just as the lightning and just as the "signs".


29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.[/quote]

Christ comes "IN the clouds of the Sky" with "Great power and Great Glory". And is seen vividly just as lightning is seen vividly.

1 Thess 4
16 For the [b]Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout[/b], with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.


Rev 6 (when sixth seal is broken)
14 The sky was split apart like a scroll[/b] when it is rolled up, and [b]every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 Then the kings of the earth[/b] and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free[/b] man hid themselves in the cave[/b]s and among the rocks of the mountains;
16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, ""Fall on us and hide us[/b] from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;[/b]
17 for the great day of their wrath[/b] has come, and who is able to stand?''


Those who think the Son of man has already come in the clouds with great power and glory have seriously watered down those terms.

 

So that is my take on Matt 24 -- we will now see what other options there are for those following the details of that chapter.

Enjoy!

in Christ,

Bob

 

Don't rush into anything, jil. His outline doesn't conform to the questions Jesus was answering. The disciples asked Jesus 3 things: 1) "When shall these things be (destruction of the temple)?" 2) "What is the sign of Your coming[?] ..." 3) "... and of the end of the age?"

Now find Jesus answers: 1) Mt 24:4-8. Notice that Jesus says that all that precedes are NOT the end (as some would think when the temple is destroyed) but only the "beginning of sorrows."

2) Mt 24:9-31. These are the signs of His coming. Verse 9 brings us through the years of persecution of the Jews including, most recently, the Holocaust in Germany. Just prior to the tribulation, there will be false prophets who turn many from the love of Jesus (re: Rev 3:14-21 Laodicea). One thought is that they will teach that Jesus was not God, BTW.

Then you have the abomination at midtrib and "great tribulation," the final 3 1/2 years, afterward. Mt 24:27-31 shows Christ's return (you can read it).

3) Mt 24:32-51. A series of parables mixed with the auspicious event of people disappearing describes the end of the church age and the end of the age of law (they end within 7 years of one another so both are described). The fig tree is Israel revived in her land pretrib. The days of Noah indicate the course of Gentile believers who will be taken without warning "above" the judgment -- days of Lot (Luke 17:28) indicate the days of Israel taken away (144,000 remnant protected in the earth) from the judgment.

Hence, the disappearances of Gentiles in Mt 24:40-41. Mt 24:42-43 refers us to these as "householders" -- those who govern the age -- as suffering loss because those left behind did not know the day and hour of the thief.

Mt 24:44-51 tells us of Christ's 2nd coming to Israel -- His "servants." Parablically speaking, "servants" in the Matthew's KoH parables refer to Israel.

>>>WARNING>>> Basically, BobRyan is trying to say we are already in the tribulation. He offers some incidental evidence that the seals and trumpets have already been fulfilled (read Rev 6, 8, & 9 and decide for yourself) cause he is only showing 7 more to go. This view, like preterism, is fraught with deception and false prophecy. The AC is going to do likewise when he appears (read 2Thes 2:9-10). These views call for a postribulational rapture (if they see one at all) and thereby destroy the chronology of Mt 24:32-41 and put the church into the wrath of God which God said we would not see (read 1Thes 5:4-9, etal.)

skypair

 

SkyPair -- some inconvenient details may be useful for the reader.

#1. If you actually have a quote or post from me on Rev 6 or 7 -- feel free to show it.

#2. Matt 24 already shows the inconvenient fact that "AFTER the tribulation of those days" He gathers His elect.

I am going to have to go with scripture on this one even if you think scripture is misleading.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Matt 24
Matthew 24
1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2 And He said to them, ""Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.''


Here we see a clear reference to the future event in 70 A.D the destruction of Jerusalem.

Matt 24
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, ""Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be [b]the sign of Your coming[/b], and of the end of the age[/b]?''

The disciples view the end of Jerusalem as “the end of all things” but to be certain they ask about specifics, the destruction of the temple, the signs of Christ’s coming AND the end of the age. (Not knowing if they are all the same event or not). However as we learn in Matt 24 the Coming of Christ IS the end of this age for that is exactly how John describes His Coming (Rev 19) and the END of all the wicked along with the resurrection of the saints (Rev 20).

Matt 24
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "" See to it that no one misleads you.
5 ""For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
6 ""You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

First Christ gives them signs clearly seen but that are not signs of the end –

Then He gives them signs that will increase over time - like birth pangs.

Matt 24
7 ""For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
8 "" But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


Thus ends the section on increasing signs like labor pangs.

 

Then Christ points to the fact that all of this continues until the Gospel is preached to all the world AND then the end comes

Matt 24
14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.[/B]

1. Only One Gospel - and it is THIS Gospel –
2. the precross Gospel the same as the post-Cross Gospel preached into all the World.

Not until the Gospel has gone into the entire world - will Christ come - and this was spoken by Christ pre-cross and then published by Matt post-cross - as a "future event". The Gospel going into all the world - an event we "Still" wait for.. This scope applies to “all mankind” not just Jews.



Matt 24
15 ""Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains;
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 ""But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 ""But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.


Where was “the holy ground” in Matt 24:15 in the days of Christ – was it outside of the city in the burial grounds?

Jer 31
38 ""Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 ""The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40 ""And [b]the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD;[/b] it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.''

 

Rev 6, 8, and 9 describe the seals and trumpets. I guess you propose that all of them have occurred already. When? Where? How?

When does the "Ancient of days" come?

skypair

 

The ancient of Days is shown in Daniel 7 as coming before the persecution of the saints starting at the time of Rome - has ended.

 

Good, then let's see what happened just before that. Dan 7:8 "8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

OK, who were the 10 horns? and the 3 horns plucked up? And when was the "beast destroyed and his body given to the burning flames (7:11)? Pls give me some detail here so I can orient myself to your assertions.

skypair

 

I can tell you but then you just complain about what I post --

John Gill -- baptist author of the first baptist commentary gets the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 correct -
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=009&verse=025

Let's see if he also gets Dan 7 correct as simple as it is.

http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=007&verse=008

Bingo! Give that author of the baptist commentary another gold medal!! He gets it right AGAIN!

John Gill notes that this has to refer to the fall of pagan Rome into ten primary kingdoms and the overtaking of 3 of those original ten by the Papacy – (He provides several options for the 3)

The three I think fit the timeline best are --


1 .Vandals (end 534 AD)
2. Heruli (end 493 A.D)
3. Ostrogoths (end 487 A.D)

 

This is a good place to put it.
I think it would be interesting.
I wish we had started it about last Sunday,
but we didn't. Thank you for starting it.

I'm studying Matthew 23-25 for teaching my
Sunday School class tomorow. New men
46-60 are put in my class. The age of the
'old' men runs from 56 to 69.
We also have a couples class in Sunday School
for couples. I just teach single men.

Here is a look at some major ways of understanding
prophecy and time from hense:


x-mill = x-millennial: the relationship of the Millennial (1,000 year)
Messianic Reign of Christ, and His Second Coming
('pre-' means the Second coming is before the Millenniuml)

x-trib = x-tribulation: the relationship of the tribulation
and the rapture/resurrection ('pre-' means the
rapture/resurrection comes before the Tribulation period)

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Post-trib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Post-trib a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
(same as 2. Tribulation time)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. spiritual MK=millennial kingdom, in heaven
5. spiritual new heaven & new earth

Done-did preterist a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection -- already happened
2. Tribulation time -- you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event -- already happened
4. spiritual MK=millennial kingdom -- already happened
5. new heaven & new earth -- you are here

I prescribe to the Post-trib pre-mill position.
Other Good Christains (including even non-Baptists)
hold to the other positions.

 

Matthew 24:14

Matthew 24:14 (HCSB = Christian Standard
Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.

Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
"The doctrine of the Saviour
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britain, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of Christ".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

This prophecy concerns the Full Church Age!
The word of Jesus has been spreading
to the rest of world and will continue to
do so as long as the Lord tarries.

 

Matthew 24:29+

Again, I ask:

Which phrase after Matthew 24:29 is
NOT influenced by "after the tribulation
of those days"?

I think it to be Matthew 24:31 (Ed's Pretrib Rapture /EPR/)
for that verse is talking about the same gathering
of the saints as in 2 Thessalonians 2:1

Most of my fellow pre-tribulation rapture2
friends believe that Matthew 24 pertains only to
the Jews (& Israeli) so is speaking of the
post-tribulation resurrection2 (where there will
be a resurrection1 followed closely by a
rapture1). Anyway, my pretrib rapture2 friends
probably believe that Matthew 24:34 is the first
verse not influenced by " "after the tribulation
of those days".
Those of other viewpoints will be welcome
to answer in this topic:
What is the first verse Beyond Matthew 24:29
not talking about "after the tribulation of those days?

In 455AD the Vandals sacked Rome.
The Vandals were Christian (I see them
as highly fundamentalist/literal Christians
When the Bible says 'no idols' they believed 'tear
down the idols'. From before Christ the
Romans has built very lifelike statues of
their rulers and other outstanding people
and of the false gods. Some even had glass
eyeballs (how do you get a glass eyeball
into a statues eyesocket smaller than
the glass eyeball?). Well, anyway, the
Bishop of Rome (later The Pope,
or disparingly: POPS!) resided in
Rome. But the Vandals thought the
Bishop of Rome and other Christians in
Rome were sinning having all those idols around.
So the Vandals tore up the idols of Rome
in 455AD. To this day someone who needlessly
tears up other people's stuff is called a 'vandal'.

 

When Matthew says "AFTEr the tribulation of those days" the key is to look at what he DOES say and what he means -- not trying to do everything to save PTR from the devastating statement Matthew is making.

Matt 24


21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 ""So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "" For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Clearly the focus is on the 2nd coming in vs 27.

Vs 29 leads us carefully up to the goal and focus of the MAtt 24 chapter (the 2nd coming) telling us about what happens AFTER the tribulation in vs 21 that happens BEFORE the 2nd coming that we see in Vs 27.

Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

...
27 "" For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


The visibility of cloud-to-could lightning - from one end of heaven to the other - is the "comparison" made with the 2nd coming.
The coming is in the clouds - just as the lightning and just as the "signs".


29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.[/quote]


It is left as an exercise for the unbiased objective reader to note what THE TEXT says happens "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation" and to note the meaning of vs 30 where it says ":AND THEN the sign..."..

Is it really the PERFECT SEQUENCE presented for the post-trib view OR is this the PERFECT SEQUENCE for a pretrib "but immediately BEFORE THE TRIBULATION" model.

Let the reader observe the obvious in this case.

in Christ,

Bob