How about some feedback on this????

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Farley, Oct 24, 2003.

  1. Farley

    Farley
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    5 REASONS WHY CHRISTIANS SHOULD NOT OBTAIN A STATE MARRIAGE LICENCE
    SOURCE: http://www.mercyseat.net
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    5 Reasons Why Christians Should Not Obtain a State Marriage License

    by Pastor Matt Trewhella

    Every year thousands of Christians amble down to their local county
    courthouse and obtain a marriage license from the State in order to marry
    their future spouse. They do this unquestioningly. They do it because their
    pastor has told them to go get one, and besides, "everybody else gets one."
    This pamphlet attempts to answer the question - why should we not get one?

    1. The definition of a "license" demands that we not obtain one to
    marry. Black's Law Dictionary defines "license" as, "The permission by
    competent authority to do an act which without such permission, would be
    illegal." We need to ask ourselves- why should it be illegal to marry
    without the State's permission? More importantly, why should we need the
    State's permission to participate in something which God instituted (Gen.
    2:18-24)? We should not need the State's permission to marry nor should we
    grovel before state officials to seek it. What if you apply and the State
    says "no"? You must understand that the authority to license implies the
    power to prohibit. A license by definition "confers a right" to do
    something. The State cannot grant the right to marry. It is a God-given
    right.

    2. When you marry with a marriage license, you grant the State
    jurisdiction over your marriage. When you marry with a marriage license,
    your marriage is a creature of the State. It is a corporation of the State!
    Therefore, they have jurisdiction over your marriage including the fruit of
    your marriage. What is the fruit of your marriage? Your children and every
    piece of property you own. There is plenty of case law in American
    jurisprudence which declares this to be true.

    In 1993, parents were upset here in Wisconsin because a test was
    being administered to their children in the government schools which was
    very invasive of the family's privacy. When parents complained, they were
    shocked by the school bureaucrats who informed them that their children were
    required to take the test by law and that they would have to take the test
    because they (the government school) had jurisdiction over their children.
    When parents asked the bureaucrats what gave them jurisdiction, the
    bureaucrats answered, "your marriage license and their birth certificates."
    Judicially, and in increasing fashion, practically, your state marriage
    license has far-reaching implications.

    3. When you marry with a marriage license, you place yourself under a
    body of law which is immoral. By obtaining a marriage license, you place
    yourself under the jurisdiction of Family Court which is governed by
    unbiblical and immoral laws. Under these laws, you can divorce for any
    reason. Often, the courts side with the spouse who is in rebellion to God,
    and castigates the spouse who remains faithful by ordering him or her not to
    speak about the Bible or other matters of faith when present with the
    children.

    As a minister, I cannot in good conscience perform a marriage which
    would place people under this immoral body of laws. I also cannot marry
    someone with a marriage license because to do so I have to act as an agent
    of the State! I would have to sign the marriage license, and I would have
    to mail it into the State. Given the State's demand to usurp the place of
    God and family regarding marriage, and given it's unbiblical, immoral laws
    to govern marriage, it would be an act of treason for me to do so.

    4. The marriage license invades and removes God-given parental
    authority. When you read the Bible, you see that God intended for children
    to have their father's blessing regarding whom they married. Daughters were
    to be given in marriage by their fathers (Dt. 22:16; Ex. 22:17; I Cor.
    7:38). We have a vestige of this in our culture today in that the father
    takes his daughter to the front of the altar and the minister asks, "Who
    gives this woman to be married to this man?"

    Historically, there was no requirement to obtain a marriage license
    in colonial America. When you read the laws of the colonies and then the
    states, you see only two requirements for marriage. First, you had to obtain
    your parents permission to marry, and second, you had to post public notice
    of the marriage 5-15 days before the ceremony.

    Notice you had to obtain your parents permission. Back then you saw
    godly government displayed in that the State recognized the parents
    authority by demanding that the parents permission be obtained. Today, the
    all-encompassing ungodly State demands that their permission be obtained to
    marry.

    By issuing marriage licenses, the State is saying, "You don't need
    your parents permission, you need our permission." If parents are opposed to
    their child's marrying a certain person and refuse to give their permission,
    the child can do an end run around the parents authority by obtaining the
    State's permission, and marry anyway. This is an invasion and removal of
    God-given parental authority by the State.

    5. When you marry with a marriage license, you are like a
    polygamist[more accurately polyandrist or having two husbands at the same
    time]. From the State's point of view, when you marry with a marriage
    license, you are not just marrying your spouse, but you are also marrying
    the State.

    The most blatant declaration of this fact that I have ever found is a
    brochure entitled "With This Ring I Thee Wed." It is found in county
    courthouses across Ohio where people go to obtain their marriage licenses.
    It is published by the Ohio State Bar Association. The opening paragraph
    under the subtitle "Marriage Vows" states, "Actually, when you repeat your
    marriage vows you enter into a legal contract. There are three parties to
    that contract. 1.You; 2. Your husband or wife, as the case may be; and 3.
    the State of Ohio."

    See, the State and the lawyers know that when you marry with a
    marriage license, you are not just marrying your spouse, you are marrying
    the State! You are like a polygamist! You are not just making a vow to your
    spouse, but you are making a vow to the State and your spouse. You are also
    giving undue jurisdiction to the State.

    When Does the State Have Jurisdiction Over a Marriage?

    God intended the State to have jurisdiction over a marriage for two
    reasons - 1). in the case of divorce, and 2). when crimes are committed
    i.e., adultery, etc. Unfortunately, the State now allows divorce for any
    reason, and it does not prosecute for adultery.

    In either case, divorce or crime, a marriage license is not necessary
    for the courts to determine whether a marriage existed or not. What is
    needed are witnesses. This is why you have a best man and a maid of honor.
    They should sign the marriage certificate in your family Bible, and the
    wedding day guest book should be kept.

    Marriage was instituted by God, therefore it is a God-given right.
    According to Scripture, it is to be governed by the family, and the State
    only has jurisdiction in the cases of divorce or crime.

    History of Marriage Licenses in America

    George Washington was married without a marriage license. Abraham
    Lincoln was married without a marriage license. So, how did we come to this
    place in America where marriage licenses are issued?

    Historically, all the states in America had laws outlawing the
    marriage of blacks and whites. In the mid-1800's, certain states began
    allowing interracial marriages or miscegenation as long as those marrying
    received a license from the state. In other words they had to receive
    permission to do an act which without such permission would have been
    illegal.

    Blacks Law Dictionary points to this historical fact when it defines
    "marriage license" as, "A license or permission granted by public authority
    to persons who intend to intermarry." "Intermarry" is defined in Black's Law
    Dictionary as, "Miscegenation; mixed or racial intermarriages."

    Give the State an inch and they will take a 100 miles (or as one
    elderly woman once said to me "10,000 miles.") Not long after these licenses
    were issued, some states began requiring all people who marry to obtain a
    marriage license. In 1923, the Federal Government established the Uniform
    Marriage and Marriage License Act (they later established the Uniform
    Marriage and Divorce Act). By 1929, every state in the Union had adopted
    marriage license laws.

    What Should We Do?

    Christian couples should not be marrying with State marriage
    licenses, nor should ministers be marrying people with State marriage
    licenses. Some have said to me, "If someone is married without a marriage
    license, then they aren't really married." Given the fact that states may
    soon legalize same-sex marriages, we need to ask ourselves, "If a man and a
    man marry with a State marriage license, and a man and woman marry without a
    State marriage license - who's really married? Is it the two men with a
    marriage license, or the man and woman without a marriage license? In
    reality, this contention that people are not really married unless they
    obtain a marriage license simply reveals how Statist we are in our thinking.
    We need to think biblically.

    You should not have to obtain a license from the State to marry
    someone anymore than you should have to obtain a license from the State to
    be a parent, which some in academic and legislative circles are currently
    pushing to be made law.

    When I marry a couple, I always buy them a Family Bible which
    contains birth and death records, and a marriage certificate. We record the
    marriage in the Family Bible. What's recorded in a Family Bible will stand
    up as legal evidence in any court of law in America. Both George Washington
    and Abraham Lincoln were married without a marriage license. They simply
    recorded their marriages in their Family Bibles. So should we.

    (Pastor Trewhella has been marrying couples without marriage licenses
    for ten years. Many other pastors also refuse to marry couples with State
    marriage licenses.

    This pamphlet is not comprehensive in scope. Rather, the purpose of
    this pamphlet is to make you think and give you a starting point to do
    further study of your own. If you would like an audio sermon regarding this
    matter, just send a gift of at least five dollars in cash to: Mercy Seat
    Christian Church 10240 W. National Ave. PMB #129 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53227.
     
  2. aefting

    aefting
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  3. Watchman

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    Yes, I think the above passage rules here. We are to obey those in authority, unless they ask something of us that clearly goes against God's word. I do not see where requiring a license here goes against God's word.
     
  4. David Mark

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    I've heard the phrase "common law" used here in South Carolina. I cannot remember the exact definition, but it is something to the effect of when a man and woman live together for a certain period of time the are automatically considered married and have protection from abusing one another by the same law that folks with licensens have.

    Being married leagly can protect the abused and restrain an abuser.

    I don't exactly know at what precise point the Father considers a man and a woman married.

    Dave
     
  5. rsr

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    It differs from state to state. In some jurisdictions, it is enough that you have presented yourself to the community as being married.

    As to the original post, I don't give a hoot whether a couple chooses to get a license; you could make a good case that it's not necessary. Maybe Christian marriage should be something different than secular marriage.

    But the fact of getting a license makes no difference in family court, custody, child support, etc. The state — whether you have a license or not — will still intervene in some situations. Imagine being hauled into court in a custody case and telling the judge "Sorry, but you have no right to butt in here because I didn't get a marriage license."

    Sorry. The judge, no matter the laws of the state, will take jurisdiction, one way or the other.
     
  6. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Pragmatic view - if you have a child while living abroad the US Embassy will require a marraige licence in order to grant your child Natural Born Citizenship - at least that was the case when our child was born here in Ireland 8 years ago.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    To be "married" without a license is not to be married at all and thus is to live in immorality until such time as a legal marriage is entered in. To be subject to the laws of the government is not an option for believers, no matter what ridiculous propositions someone might come up with.
     
  8. dianetavegia

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    </font>[/QUOTE]Well quoted.

    As a side bar. My sister-in-law has been 'living with' a guy for more years than I can remember but well over 10 years, calling themselves husband and wife. She recently had open heart surgery and later got a denial of payment from the insurance company. He had listed her as his wife many years ago and now she is expected to repay all the medical bills from so very many years. She's also been told that if he dies before her, their home will go to his surviving relative (which is not HER), even tho she has helped pay the mortgage all these years. She's not entitiled to social security through him either. This guys MOTHER, who is in her late 80's, doesn't want her son to ever marry. He stands to inherit a large amount of money when mommy dearest dies.... so...

    Diane
     
  9. Farley

    Farley
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    Will you run to Romans 13 when the Govt. tells you you have to hire a sodomite at your church? Or how about when they tell you the gospel is a hate message against Jews and Muslims and can't be preached becuase it excludes salvation from them apart from Christ? I think this fellow has some points. I intend to study it further.
     
  10. Jim1999

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    In Ontario, if we publish the banns for three successive Sundays with one of the partners present,a licence is not required to marry, and there is no government fee. This is both a legal and proper marriage.

    We are required to register the marriage with the government registry and keep accurate records in the church.

    The registration is important, not only for legal matters, but down the road for government pensions and child benefits.

    Frankly, I think this preacher's remarks are way off base and border the ridiculous. With the divorce rate reaching epidemic proportions, even among Christians, we need a legal document to protect civil rights in separation.

    A couple in Canada, who lives together, is deemed married for tax purposes. They can only protect civil rights by a marriage contract. They do not enjoy the same marital rights to property and other possessions. It becomes a legal paradise for the lawyers.

    Marriage is both a state and church function for legal purposes. The Christian part depends on the people making the vows before God.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  11. aefting

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    No, at that point I would run to Acts 4:18-20, among others.
     
  12. Trotter

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    Why ask for feedback? Apparantly you've already settled it in your mind and just want to argue with anyone who differs from your view.

    I would not marry anyone who did not have a license from the state. The license, once witnessed, signed, and recorded, is a legal document and record of the said union. Through it, the marriage is recognized by the local, state, and federal government. Without it, the couple could run afoul of the IRS, the Social Security Administration, insurance companies (as above), ans many other legalities.

    Some people may not like it (the Jehovah's Witnesses being one such group), but a marriage license is one of the laws of the land, and it is one of the laws that does not contradict Scripture. As to hiring a sodomite (or any other such notion), the government cannot tell you who to hire unless you work for them. Someone could try to sue you for not hiring them, but they have to prove that you passed them over.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    Of course not. Both of those are direct violation of biblical commands. Obtaining a marriage license is not. It is rather like obeying the speed limit or obtaining a driver's license.
     
  14. Salty

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    Lets see where do I begin?
    First when you apply for a licence, the state will (via computers) check to see if you are married anywhere else in the state. Sound thinking! Some states require blood tests ect, make sure you are of legal age, and a host of other items. I do not see a problem. (at least for now)
    I suppose your doctor is not licensed by the state. My goodness, the state allows abortion, so any licenced doctor could be preforming abortions.
    Lets hope the electrian who put in the wires in your church was not licensed. My goodness, as a state licensed electrician, he may be required by the state to put bugging devises thruout the church building.
    I am sure you do not have a drivers licence or plates for your car. We all know that is an easy way for the goverment to track us.

    I will anxiously be awaity your reply. [​IMG]
     
  15. Daniel David

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    Run to Romans 13? Did I really just read that? Are you asking if we turn to Scripture for our position?

    The government is a divine institution just like the family, the church, and marriage.

    In God's economy, the church does not run the government and the government does not run the church. If the government demands disobedience to God, then it is to be ignored.

    Don't forget that Paul commanded Timothy to pray for the government that they might live peaceably with them.

    The position of that person is antiScriptural and thus, antiChrist. He is to be ignored and rejected as a foolish and unlearned teacher. Obedience to God would demand separation from that false teacher.
     
  16. dianetavegia

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    These learned men said it so very well but may I add that I submit to my husband, as God has commanded me to do but if my husband were to ask me to do something against God's word, I would refuse. The goverment, by insisting on a marriage 'license', a fishing license, or a hunting license etc. is NOT going against the word of God.

    I also believe you have your mind made up and came here to pick a fuss but I'm VERY surprised you are Reformed Baptist and questioning this!

    Diane
     
  17. Gina B

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    I don't like the idea of state condoned marriages or divorces. They're pieces of paper from someone without the God-given authority to give status to unions. :mad:
    Gina
     
  18. Jim1999

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    There are plenty of countries where a state marriage is the only marriage. Churches may have their own private services also, but not instead of.

    In modern society, whether we like it or not, marriage is both state and church in union in most of the western world....I obviously can't speak for the USA.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  19. Artimaeus

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    Tell that to Adam and Eve. Matrimony is Holy whether or not the state has given its approval. Tell that to Adam and Steve. That matrimony is unholy whether or not the state has given its approval. The only thing the state does is provide legal remedies for civil wrongs and provide legal justifications for civil rights. This has nothing to do with whether or not a marriage is "real".
     
  20. David Mark

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    Please let me be ridiculous. :cool:

    The speed limit on many of the roads I travel is 35 MPH. If I can justify going 38 MPH for any reason then I have broken the law. Right?

    Yet many times it is virtually impossible to actually go the speed limit. This is because probably 99% of EVERYONE is disobedient and has their own interpretation of what is allowable. Only the worst offenders are punished.

    Even the police allow a secret unknowable buffer that may vary from officer to officer.

    If I go 38 in a 35, does my Father see me do it? Yup. Would he consider why I would do it? Yup. Isn't He telling me to be obedient? Yes He is!

    If I did 35 when I knew it was safe and reasonable to do 38, and in my heart I did it just out of spite for the other drivers behind me, will my Father see that too? Yup.

    If I did 38 in a 35 and got a ticket, would I have room to complain? No. I would be a fool to complain and my Father would see that too.

    It is reasonable to me, to use such a ridiculous example. The speed limit and marriage licenses are both governmental restrictions or laws and fully enforceable. If I offend in one area, even though I don't get caught, why would I now be less lenient with others or hold others to a stricter standard than myself?

    That seems to be a similar problem that the self-righteous Pharisees had. Being law breakers themselves while holding others fully accountable.

    It seems to me that it was those Pharisees that the Lord had the harshest words for.

    I tend to think that only the one who is perfect in every area of the law really has the right to judge others or even say what is a right or wrong interpretation of any other law.

    Dave [​IMG]
     

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